[00:00.000 --> 00:11.560] So, welcome to the second talk of today in the sovereign cloud death room. [00:11.560 --> 00:16.220] And I'm very happy that Peter, founder of Pacona, is with us. [00:16.220 --> 00:18.200] And this is now your stage, Peter. [00:18.200 --> 00:19.200] Welcome. [00:19.200 --> 00:20.200] Okay. [00:20.200 --> 00:21.200] Thank you. [00:21.200 --> 00:22.200] Thank you. [00:22.200 --> 00:23.200] Oh, one. [00:23.200 --> 00:24.200] That's fantastic. [00:24.200 --> 00:25.200] Okay. [00:25.200 --> 00:26.200] Well. [00:26.200 --> 00:38.200] So, we're going to talk today about wonderful topic of open source and its relationship with [00:38.200 --> 00:39.200] the cloud. [00:39.200 --> 00:44.120] Now, I think most of you don't know me. [00:44.120 --> 00:48.960] And I thought I would highlight my perspective first, right? [00:48.960 --> 00:54.600] So you can understand maybe where I'm coming from better. [00:54.600 --> 01:02.800] Myself, I was involved in open source since late nineties, which now seems like a long [01:02.800 --> 01:03.920] time ago. [01:03.920 --> 01:10.480] I was at that time building my first startup back in Russia. [01:10.480 --> 01:16.840] And I took unconventional decision to use open source rather than stealing property [01:16.840 --> 01:21.600] software, which was, you know, the most conventional thing to do, right? [01:21.600 --> 01:30.160] In Russia in late nineties, afterwards, I joined my school AV before Oracle, before [01:30.160 --> 01:31.160] Sunmet. [01:31.160 --> 01:39.080] That was like a tiny company about 40 people and that's where I got a lot exposure in building [01:39.080 --> 01:43.160] and sort of promoting the open source. [01:43.160 --> 01:52.000] And I also was their founder and until recently CEO of the company, which specializes in open [01:52.000 --> 01:55.160] source databases, right? [01:55.160 --> 01:59.760] And we release all our software as open source. [01:59.760 --> 02:05.040] And since that time, I was also involved as advisor, mentor, investor in some case and [02:05.040 --> 02:12.360] various, you know, companies around open source, open source space, right? [02:12.360 --> 02:18.880] If you want to summarize all that kind of presentation, a couple of words is, would [02:18.880 --> 02:19.880] it probably this, right? [02:19.880 --> 02:24.760] I believe that everything being equal, open source is a better choice, right? [02:24.760 --> 02:31.320] Of course, you tell me it's never everything equal, but then I think this second thing [02:31.320 --> 02:32.600] applies, right? [02:32.600 --> 02:41.520] I think as a member of community, employee, right, manager of a company, it is always better [02:41.520 --> 02:48.680] for you long term to invest your time, invest your resources into the open source rather [02:48.680 --> 02:55.840] than just send that to some, you know, proprietary vendor, right, which will provide more value [02:55.840 --> 03:00.080] to them than to you. [03:00.080 --> 03:05.240] Now one thing to understand about open source is that the open source takes time. [03:05.240 --> 03:14.400] This is a slide I shamelessly stole from, talk from Bruce with this last name nobody [03:14.400 --> 03:17.280] can pronounce, so I won't ever try it, right? [03:17.280 --> 03:24.800] But this is the Bruce in PostgreSQL community, right, who often talks about PostgreSQL and [03:24.800 --> 03:29.800] open source and he uses this chart which says, hey, you know what, if you look at compared [03:29.800 --> 03:37.360] to the proprietary software, open source tend to take a longer time, right? [03:37.360 --> 03:45.400] Because if you think about saying, hey, you know what, I get one kind of, you know, get [03:45.400 --> 03:49.920] a small team together, you know, fund them and say, hey, build this, we can do it faster [03:49.920 --> 03:56.880] compared to open source, which is kind of a lot more organic fluid, a lot more discussions, [03:56.880 --> 04:04.200] you know, a lot more, you know, people operating maybe on a volunteer basis, each takes time, [04:04.200 --> 04:13.400] but then over time, it overtakes the proprietary software according to many criteria in many [04:13.400 --> 04:15.040] areas. [04:15.040 --> 04:23.120] And as example, which I would use is this, like Linux and Celerius. [04:23.120 --> 04:30.840] When I was getting started with open source, I have a lot of friends which were running [04:30.840 --> 04:39.400] real Unix operating system, you know, Celerius, HPX, AIX, anybody remember those, right? [04:39.400 --> 04:44.560] And they would think like, well, Linux, that is a toy, right? [04:44.560 --> 04:51.000] That's like a 32-bit operating system at the time, doesn't handle, you know, multiple CPUs [04:51.000 --> 04:52.000] well. [04:52.000 --> 04:57.280] You could not even at the time have a file more than two gigabytes in size, right? [04:57.280 --> 05:01.600] I mean, you know, like sounds like a joke, right? [05:01.600 --> 05:06.600] And rightfully so, but where are we here now, right? [05:06.600 --> 05:12.240] I mean, how many of you are guys still running HPX, anyone? [05:12.240 --> 05:17.480] Or like AIX, Celerius probably, maybe there should be one or two people, no? [05:17.480 --> 05:18.480] No Celerius folks? [05:18.480 --> 05:25.920] Well, we can see what over time, Linux, if it's kind of slow and messy at times, development [05:25.920 --> 05:35.280] progress, right, really overtook that there are other operating systems, right? [05:35.280 --> 05:43.360] Especially if you look at the server side, right, then Linux is well dominating. [05:43.360 --> 05:49.320] And we can also look, if you look at the cloud, we can see another comparison here, right? [05:49.320 --> 05:57.080] I remember also back in those early nineties, where folks would be using, you know, ASP.net [05:57.080 --> 06:03.720] with Windows stacks and wow, it is so fantastic if you graphical user interfaces, wherever, [06:03.720 --> 06:13.080] compared to us open source folks who would be coding, you know, PHP or Perl in VI, right? [06:13.120 --> 06:20.520] Or Emacs, right, if you are from the other camp, right, in that time, right? [06:20.520 --> 06:22.840] Which was very different, right? [06:22.840 --> 06:30.600] But if you look at how things developed right now, now we have a fantastic development frameworks, [06:30.600 --> 06:39.160] right, very efficient for many open source frameworks, right, that things evolve. [06:39.160 --> 06:45.200] Now, at the same time, if you look at the cloud standpoint, we are kind of in a similar situation. [06:45.200 --> 06:53.480] You can even go to this kind of very polished, integrated, yada yada, but very proprietary stacks, [06:53.480 --> 07:01.720] which Amazon or many other proprietary huge cloud vendors are ready to provide you, right? [07:01.720 --> 07:09.080] Or you can have open source solutions which are not yet as polished, powerful, integrated. [07:09.080 --> 07:10.720] And so on and so forth, right? [07:10.720 --> 07:17.720] But I believe, well, they are going to get there. [07:17.720 --> 07:24.280] Now, what I want at this point to talk a little bit more about where we are now in kind of a state [07:24.280 --> 07:29.000] of the ecosystem, what is happening and what the trends are. [07:29.000 --> 07:34.880] One, if you think about relationship with clouds and open source, you can say, well, [07:34.880 --> 07:44.200] from one side, the cloud vendors have been making the open source a lot easier for other people, right? [07:44.200 --> 07:50.600] I mean, if you look at deploying some open source technology, especially it applies, I would say, [07:50.600 --> 07:56.720] to the databases, it's much easier to get, let's say, Postgres running in a cloud vendor [07:56.720 --> 08:04.160] compared to getting your kind of well, you know, highly available, monitor backup [08:04.160 --> 08:10.040] for a PostgreSQL cluster on virtual machines, right? [08:10.040 --> 08:18.200] But on the other hand, we can also see all those cloud vendors use this kind of an old strategy, [08:18.200 --> 08:23.720] which actually they used even before the cloud, which is called embrace, extend, extinguish, right? [08:23.720 --> 08:27.640] And what that means is, hey, you know, why don't we take the open source? [08:27.640 --> 08:30.440] We make it fancier. [08:30.440 --> 08:35.240] Fancy may mean more features, like in a database space, well, where I come from, [08:35.240 --> 08:37.440] would be something like Amazon Aurora. [08:37.440 --> 08:41.680] It's wonderful, there are those kind of additional features, very performance, wherever. [08:41.680 --> 08:48.280] Or maybe more usable, maybe there's like a fancy GUI, so you can deploy it with a couple of clicks, [08:48.280 --> 08:54.240] right, instead of have to put some elbow grease, right, to do it the open source way. [08:54.240 --> 09:01.200] But then, yes, you go there and you kind of check in in a hotel, California, right? [09:01.200 --> 09:09.480] Which if you know the song, you can't really ever leave, leave again, right? [09:09.480 --> 09:14.720] Now, what I think in this case, it's important to understand, and for all of us as open source developers [09:14.720 --> 09:20.360] to recognize what really the usability and ease of view is increasingly becoming, [09:20.360 --> 09:26.800] that is a new frontier of the competition, right? [09:26.800 --> 09:33.440] And I think that is especially hard for people for my generation, [09:33.440 --> 09:37.640] which got used to that very kind of hairy open source, right? [09:37.640 --> 09:42.440] At that time, we remember, you know, compiling open source from source, right? [09:42.440 --> 09:45.760] And kind of, we have all that skills, right? [09:45.760 --> 09:52.560] But if you think what is happening right now in a software industry, in general, [09:52.560 --> 09:56.440] as well in open source is this. [09:56.440 --> 10:02.920] One is a software just, you know, absolutely explodes in amount, right? [10:02.920 --> 10:05.000] Everything is software those days, right? [10:05.000 --> 10:09.280] Amount of software which is being written will need to be written, need to be maintained, [10:10.280 --> 10:16.000] and so on and so forth is, you know, absolutely amazing and growing every year. [10:16.000 --> 10:17.840] The same happens with data, right? [10:17.840 --> 10:25.960] We have more and more data and more and more ways to process and whatever that data for good and for evil, right? [10:25.960 --> 10:36.280] But at the same time, we are, have to do that with less, especially with skills, right? [10:36.280 --> 10:41.200] You can see as a software engineer in, right, in technology industries of all, [10:41.200 --> 10:45.400] we have a lot of people getting in that stuff, [10:45.400 --> 10:52.200] which are not going to really be able to debug Linux kernel code, right? [10:52.200 --> 10:59.080] You know, have some, you know, just obvious basic skills, right? [10:59.080 --> 11:10.520] Well, for them, you need to build a software which is, which is, which is easier to use. [11:10.520 --> 11:16.440] The fact, I think, what is very interesting is what we can see increasingly some expert, [11:16.440 --> 11:26.440] even in related to open source technologies, which actually only have cloud specific skills, right? [11:26.440 --> 11:32.440] Well, especially in the US, right, where I think adoption of a cloud is substantially for a loan, right? [11:32.440 --> 11:37.760] You may have somebody saying, look, you know, I am, you know, PostgreSQL expert, right? [11:37.760 --> 11:39.400] And you talk to them, what that means? [11:39.400 --> 11:46.640] He is very capable of provisioning, you know, PostgreSQL Aurora on AWS with two clicks, right? [11:46.640 --> 11:49.360] But you say, like, well, you know what, what is patronage? [11:49.360 --> 11:51.280] Yes, like, what, what? [11:51.280 --> 11:58.040] Well, that's like some high-vivity solution for Postgres, right, if you guys don't know, right? [11:58.040 --> 12:02.680] Which is, which is very basic, well. [12:02.680 --> 12:11.200] I think another interesting thing is what, especially in the large corporations standpoint, [12:11.200 --> 12:15.760] a lot of them run to build their businesses by, by the book, right? [12:15.760 --> 12:24.000] So if a management made a choice, what we are adopting, let's say, Amazon cloud or Google cloud, Azure doesn't matter. [12:24.000 --> 12:28.240] They often then would come to them and say, OK, how do we do that? [12:28.240 --> 12:29.960] Give us the book, right? [12:29.960 --> 12:33.240] And what are those cloud vendors going to tell? [12:33.240 --> 12:39.320] Oh, they're not going to, to tell you, well, you know, to use our basic services which you find in the other cloud. [12:39.320 --> 12:46.720] They are going to tell you to use where the most property, advanced, you know, managed solution, right? [12:46.720 --> 12:52.160] If you read what Amazon will say, hey, you know, go use DynamoDB, right? [12:52.160 --> 12:53.520] It's awesome, right? [12:53.520 --> 13:02.080] Or it's Amazon Aurora, Redshift, all that kind of stuff, which, which makes you the most sticky for the cloud [13:02.080 --> 13:09.280] and which is also providing the most margin to, to those folks, right? [13:09.280 --> 13:11.760] So what is also interesting in this case, right? [13:11.760 --> 13:19.640] If you look for Amazon Aurora, for example, as they see their customers getting more and more locked in, [13:19.640 --> 13:25.040] the price differential between their, your computer sources, right? [13:25.040 --> 13:27.080] You know, storage, right? [13:27.080 --> 13:32.800] And essentially, like another software, it becoming larger and larger, right? [13:32.800 --> 13:39.280] If every new generation of CPU can actually, you know, I find that excuses, right? [13:39.280 --> 13:41.960] So, I find that changes. [13:41.960 --> 13:49.280] So what, so that means it becomes more and more expensive over time, right? [13:49.280 --> 13:56.760] And also, you will see in this environment also really embracing scaling by the credit card, right? [13:56.760 --> 14:01.000] Because scaling is, is easy, right? [14:01.000 --> 14:08.160] You don't have to figure out how to run the, that server you have because getting the next one would, [14:08.160 --> 14:10.040] bigger one would take three months, right? [14:10.040 --> 14:11.840] Even if you get a budget approved, right? [14:11.840 --> 14:14.200] Like we used to have like 10, 15 years ago. [14:14.200 --> 14:17.160] Now, you know, screw that optimization skills, right? [14:17.160 --> 14:20.200] You can just go to the larger instance size, right? [14:20.200 --> 14:24.160] And that's, that's easy. [14:24.160 --> 14:27.040] And again, like from what we see from a database standpoint, [14:27.040 --> 14:36.400] a lot of databases in the cloud are optimized very poorly exactly because of that trend. [14:36.400 --> 14:42.800] Now, what is interesting for me also is how that plays with their venture funded open source, [14:42.800 --> 14:48.200] which is a lot of open source those days, of course, right? [14:48.200 --> 14:55.320] And what we can see is what they are really, well, [14:55.320 --> 15:01.720] protesting against unfair competition from a cloud vendors, yada, yada, right? [15:01.720 --> 15:08.360] And many of them abandon open source licenses, right? [15:08.360 --> 15:11.520] And go to, to something else, right? [15:11.520 --> 15:22.200] Which is, well, really shifting to a proprietary, proprietary software, software models. [15:22.200 --> 15:28.240] Now, this is, in my opinion, is very different from a community driven open source, right? [15:28.240 --> 15:32.840] If you think about, well, compare something like PostgreSQL to Mongo, right? [15:32.840 --> 15:37.400] Which I think is the, in the, in the database space are very opposites [15:37.400 --> 15:42.360] from on that kind of open source embracement specter, right? [15:42.360 --> 15:52.400] The PostgreSQL really has benefited a lot from, from a cloud, from adoption standpoint, right? [15:52.400 --> 16:02.240] Because cloud made PostgreSQL much easier for, for a lot of, a lot of people, right? [16:02.280 --> 16:09.400] But at the same time, of course, now there are different players which dominate the ecosystem. [16:09.400 --> 16:14.840] Yes, it used to be enterprise DB was the biggest dog, right? [16:14.840 --> 16:17.440] Well, now it is probably Amazon, right? [16:17.440 --> 16:21.280] And other cloud vendors make more money and they are, but you know what? [16:21.280 --> 16:28.200] They are hiring a lot of PostgreSQL engineers and investing a lot still to make a PostgreSQL better. [16:28.240 --> 16:33.560] So, at large extent, PostgreSQL community still benefits in this regard. [16:37.320 --> 16:45.280] What also have been interesting for me in the last decade or so is the idea of a growth at any cost, right? [16:45.280 --> 16:50.360] For a lot of companies, you can find, well, at least in the US stock market, you know, [16:50.360 --> 16:56.240] the more money company is losing, the better its valuation, right? [16:57.200 --> 17:03.360] As long as you can grow a user base, base as well, right? [17:03.360 --> 17:09.400] And in this case, you really gravitated saying, how can I grow faster? [17:09.400 --> 17:18.080] That means focus my resources and, and cloud, which often allows you to, well, things simple, [17:18.160 --> 17:24.160] no, expensive, right, was very much adopted, right? [17:24.160 --> 17:31.000] And for those companies often didn't make sense to invest in efficiency, [17:31.000 --> 17:34.160] which I think open source often brings ease, right? [17:34.160 --> 17:40.480] Even though it requires a little bit more investment and elbow grease kind of and management attention [17:40.480 --> 17:43.320] to make those things happen. [17:43.320 --> 17:53.360] Even more, though, you can see the cloud has been quite good at giving you your first shot of heroin for free, right? [17:53.360 --> 17:58.280] You can find what every cloud or person, hey, oh, your startup, great, [17:58.280 --> 18:04.400] will give you some, you know, big chunk of money so you can spend, spend on us, right? [18:04.400 --> 18:10.440] Or giving the free tea, right, and whatever, whatever solution. [18:10.440 --> 18:15.000] Well, but I guess with this analogy, you understand, right? [18:15.000 --> 18:19.880] Well, what if somebody giving you a first shot of heroin for free, [18:19.880 --> 18:25.880] they may not always have your best interest in mind, right? [18:30.680 --> 18:36.640] Now, I think what is interesting is what there are some revelations which are, which are coming, right? [18:36.640 --> 18:40.320] I think in this case and things are changing. [18:40.320 --> 18:44.760] And I will provide a bunch of like links to the detailed articles here, right, [18:44.760 --> 18:47.440] which you guys can check when you saw the cloud. [18:47.440 --> 18:53.160] Like this is interesting from this, you know, trillion-dollar paradox, right, [18:53.160 --> 18:57.200] which talks about, well, you know what, cloud is damn expensive. [18:57.200 --> 19:06.560] And for many cloud companies, the very large portion of their cost of revenues actually cloud spent, right? [19:06.560 --> 19:12.560] So if you are choosing to go with that cloud, especially kind of most expensive versions on that, [19:12.560 --> 19:19.160] well, you know what, you have to be giving up on a lot of potential, potential profit margin. [19:19.160 --> 19:25.000] Recently, you may also heard this 37 signals which talk about [19:25.000 --> 19:29.520] while they are leaving the cloud and they detailed that stuff. [19:29.520 --> 19:32.360] That is also like a very influential company, right? [19:32.360 --> 19:36.440] It's not very good, very big dollar amounts, right, compared to enterprise here. [19:36.440 --> 19:40.400] But I think it's very nice what they kind of went public in this case and say, [19:40.400 --> 19:49.680] hey guys, even in our scale, even if you spend in maybe, you know, like a less than 10 million dollars, right, [19:49.680 --> 19:56.160] a year on the cloud, it makes sense, right, to actually do things differently, right? [19:56.160 --> 19:59.200] And 10 million dollars may sounds like a lot of money to some of you, [19:59.200 --> 20:06.520] but if you look at even kind of like a mid-size and, well, especially more like logic operations, [20:06.520 --> 20:12.080] they often spend hundreds of millions on dollars on the cloud spent. [20:14.640 --> 20:21.440] Now, another trend which I think is interesting, which is coming out, I think is GitOps [20:21.440 --> 20:31.080] and generally the approaches where we have declarative versioned infrastructure as a code approach, right? [20:31.080 --> 20:41.600] Because when you do that, then often those kind of fancy GUI point and click I can do in the cloud [20:41.600 --> 20:44.960] is not exactly how you do things anymore, right? [20:44.960 --> 20:51.200] That's where you kind of sort of do it more of a, well, through, you know, API, you know, [20:51.200 --> 20:54.320] command line, if you will, right, things there. [20:54.320 --> 21:00.880] Open source tooling is already better. [21:00.880 --> 21:04.280] Hybrid cloud is another interesting trend, right? [21:04.280 --> 21:12.800] And what I want you to see from this graph is what if you look at the larger the corporation is, [21:12.880 --> 21:17.600] the more of them are embracing the hybrid cloud, right? [21:17.600 --> 21:22.440] That's from the CNCF poll, right? [21:22.440 --> 21:28.760] And if you are using public, if you're using hybrid clouds, multiple cloud vendors, [21:28.760 --> 21:35.200] you know, public and private cloud together, then you probably do not want to rely too much [21:35.200 --> 21:39.160] on those, you know, proprietary services, right? [21:39.160 --> 21:41.280] Because they tend not to be as portable. [21:43.760 --> 21:52.640] In the end, I think what you are, what we're seeing the open source kind of catches up again, [21:52.640 --> 21:55.880] leaving us with kind of two choices here. [21:55.880 --> 22:00.520] If you look at the AWS, which is obviously the biggest dog, where you can replace that with, [22:00.520 --> 22:02.560] you know, Azure, GCP, right? [22:02.560 --> 22:09.800] Or, you know, some other major cloud, you can really lock in the approach of a cloud vendor, right? [22:09.960 --> 22:18.520] Or you can use their cloud native foundation stack, right? [22:18.520 --> 22:24.520] Among others, right there, you are really treating cloud as a commodity and building the value [22:24.520 --> 22:28.560] through their open source software. [22:28.560 --> 22:39.760] What I think is interesting from a cloud native environment is how big it is, right? [22:40.080 --> 22:46.120] You guys probably cannot even see all the logos, right, on the slide, right? [22:46.120 --> 22:48.520] There is a lot out there. [22:48.520 --> 22:52.800] There is typically more than one solutions for even for a single problem, right? [22:52.800 --> 22:58.280] And some of you say, hey, that is too much, but that is also the open source way, right? [22:58.280 --> 23:04.280] In many cases, we need in open source multiple solutions to the same problems, right, [23:04.280 --> 23:07.120] which will kind of evolve, right? [23:07.120 --> 23:10.120] And maybe some of you will die off, I will join forces together, [23:10.120 --> 23:14.120] and that is how great stuff happens, right? [23:14.120 --> 23:24.720] But I wanted to show that just to illustrate how much momentum there is behind their open source approach. [23:24.720 --> 23:30.480] Now, I think in this case, what that allows us is to really, [23:30.480 --> 23:38.480] given their proprietary cloud, it's originally attended role of commodity infrastructure. [23:38.480 --> 23:40.720] Why am I saying originally intended role? [23:40.720 --> 23:47.480] Well, you can see this, this is actually the slide I took from some very old AWS presentation. [23:47.480 --> 23:52.000] Then they're just bringing the cloud to the masses and say, hey, guys, you know what? [23:52.000 --> 23:55.720] You don't usually run your own generator, right, at home. [23:55.720 --> 23:56.720] It's not convenient. [23:56.720 --> 24:01.720] Well, yes, in some cases, it makes sense, but mostly you buy electricity. [24:01.720 --> 24:06.720] So you should buy the same from a cloud when it comes to computer resources, storage, yada, yada. [24:06.720 --> 24:08.720] It will make sense. [24:08.720 --> 24:12.720] But here is a key difference, right? [24:12.720 --> 24:15.720] If you buy the electricity, it is commodity. [24:15.720 --> 24:23.720] You can buy the electricity from, you know, a variety of vendors or make your own, right, [24:23.720 --> 24:25.720] and you see all appliances going to work, right? [24:25.720 --> 24:32.720] You don't have to change your TV or your fridge, right, if you're doing the other electricity, right? [24:32.720 --> 24:36.720] Well, and that is kind of what a lot of cloud vendors want us to do, right? [24:36.720 --> 24:40.720] Well, we'll provide you commodity thing, right, electricity, [24:40.720 --> 24:43.720] but you know what we also really want you to use those appliances [24:43.720 --> 24:46.720] which will only work with our kind of electricity. [24:46.720 --> 24:51.720] Well, that sounds like bullshit to me. [24:51.720 --> 25:00.720] So with this, I think we have really two choices, right, how we can approach those, you know, the cloud, [25:00.720 --> 25:03.720] which I will call as a cloud of surfroom and counter-freedom. [25:03.720 --> 25:09.720] One is to use a lot of proprietary features of your cloud vendors, [25:09.720 --> 25:13.720] sell your soul to the devil, right, and all the other stuff, right? [25:13.720 --> 25:14.720] So let's vote. [25:14.720 --> 25:17.720] How many one is going to use that way? [25:17.720 --> 25:19.720] Any hands out there? [25:19.720 --> 25:20.720] No? [25:20.720 --> 25:24.720] I would accept there's some, you know, people working for Amazon here or something. [25:24.720 --> 25:28.720] I was saying, yeah, yes, yes, okay. [25:28.720 --> 25:33.720] And then we can use cloud of freedom, which is saying, well, cloud vendors are fine. [25:33.720 --> 25:39.720] It's like a good commodity infrastructure providers, like the internet providers, right? [25:39.720 --> 25:45.720] Just give us those commodity resources and we will build the rest of the stuff using open source. [25:45.720 --> 25:48.720] How many of you think that is a good idea? [25:48.720 --> 25:53.720] Okay, okay, that's better. [25:53.720 --> 26:02.720] Okay, now in this regard, what I think is a very good API in this regard? [26:02.720 --> 26:07.720] Well, it is the Kubernetes, right? [26:07.720 --> 26:11.720] I would not say that Kubernetes is absolutely perfect. [26:11.720 --> 26:18.720] It's not, but I think what every successful open source project started as a piece of crap, right? [26:18.720 --> 26:20.720] I mean, it's just how things go, right? [26:20.720 --> 26:27.720] Because you build successful open source projects not having a solid technical foundation [26:27.720 --> 26:34.720] despite what engineers want to believe, but building the movement, building the ecosystem, right? [26:34.720 --> 26:39.720] And then those ecosystems, right? [26:39.720 --> 26:44.720] Well, is able to redo the code, right? [26:44.720 --> 26:47.720] Mistakes wherever and to build something, right? [26:47.720 --> 26:50.720] With Kubernetes example, I remember there was messes. [26:50.720 --> 26:53.720] Anybody remember messes? [26:53.720 --> 26:57.720] Well, that was a very cool project, right? [26:57.720 --> 27:02.720] I remember talking to those goals and they have, let's say, five years ago a lot of very cool things [27:02.720 --> 27:05.720] which Kubernetes did not have, but you know what? [27:05.720 --> 27:08.720] They lost adoption game. [27:08.720 --> 27:18.720] And now you can see the things like I have next, oh, no, sorry, next, their container storage interface [27:18.720 --> 27:19.720] and some other stuff. [27:19.720 --> 27:20.720] Hey, you know what? [27:20.720 --> 27:25.720] Kubernetes is getting a lot better for data intensive applications, right? [27:25.720 --> 27:33.720] Not just for this narrow use case of a stateless applications, it was originally designed. [27:33.720 --> 27:38.720] We also now have either the data on Kubernetes community, right? [27:38.720 --> 27:47.720] Which is a special community which is focused on running data intensive applications on Kubernetes, right? [27:47.720 --> 27:54.720] And what is interesting in this case from also the CNCF survey, [27:54.720 --> 28:02.720] we can actually see what from 2001 to 2002 were the databases, right? [28:02.720 --> 28:12.720] So something which technically was not something you would ever think to run on Kubernetes five years ago [28:12.720 --> 28:19.720] is one of the fastest growing application type which is being run on Kubernetes those days. [28:19.720 --> 28:33.720] Now, I would say even more, what we see right now is if you look at a lot of modern independent database as a service provider, right? [28:33.720 --> 28:40.720] All of those folks, they are actually using Kubernetes on the back and to build their database as a service solution. [28:40.720 --> 28:47.720] You may not know that, you may not care, but they are doing that and that means for them, [28:47.720 --> 28:54.720] well, that is both efficient way to build it, operate it and that can be run stable enough, [28:54.720 --> 28:58.720] like at least with a good skill. [28:58.720 --> 29:07.720] Another interesting result what's going on with Kubernetes is what we are having, [29:07.720 --> 29:12.720] despite having Kubernetes already quite ubiquitous, right? [29:12.720 --> 29:15.720] Hey, you can run it on pretty much any cloud. [29:15.720 --> 29:24.720] If you look at many, you know, every distribution, Linux distribution now have their own Kubernetes disk, right? [29:24.720 --> 29:26.720] At least the major one, right? [29:26.720 --> 29:29.720] You see the Kubernetes from VMware, right? [29:29.720 --> 29:34.720] And, you know, many other solutions right now, right? [29:34.720 --> 29:44.720] But we are also having the Kubernetes come into other places, like I like this K3S solution, which is lightweight Kubernetes, right? [29:44.720 --> 29:51.720] Which you can deploy on the age IoT devices, right? [29:51.720 --> 29:58.720] Or, you know, if you just have, you know, a couple of servers in your basement that you want to run Kubernetes on. [29:58.720 --> 30:04.720] We also are getting more solutions for visual kids, right? [30:04.720 --> 30:12.720] Because if you look at, you know, like a raw Kubernetes, you often would be seeing that, you know, console and YAML files, right? [30:12.720 --> 30:13.720] Right and everything. [30:13.720 --> 30:26.720] But now we are also have a pretty good dashboard which comes with Kubernetes as a project and as well integrations with applications. [30:26.720 --> 30:33.720] Like, there are solutions like CubeApps or Rancher application catalog, right? [30:33.720 --> 30:45.720] We can say, hey, you know, if I'm running Kubernetes, I can deploy open source and the appropriate applications on my Kubernetes solution in a couple of clicks. [30:45.720 --> 30:53.720] Kind of similar to what we see now in their major, major clouds, right? [30:53.720 --> 30:58.720] Where we have their marketplaces. [30:58.720 --> 31:13.720] Okay, so with that, where do I think things need to be going and will be going next as we are getting more and more open source software in a cloud? [31:13.720 --> 31:18.720] One, we still need to continue working on the better integration. [31:18.720 --> 31:23.720] Because I think that is the name of the game right now, right? [31:23.720 --> 31:31.720] We expect really all the software and the software and hardware to be very well integrated with each other, right? [31:31.720 --> 31:38.720] And that is something where I think a lot of property vendors put a lot of folks in, right? [31:38.720 --> 31:47.720] Because if it's not easy to make two things work together, then for majority of the people, it would not be accessible. [31:47.720 --> 31:49.720] Because remember what we spoke about? [31:49.720 --> 31:55.720] A lot of people do not have very advanced skills those days. [31:55.720 --> 32:00.720] Related thing, of course, is the better usability, right? [32:00.720 --> 32:06.720] I mean, we have expectations of usability very high. [32:06.720 --> 32:09.720] Attention span, very low, right? [32:09.720 --> 32:10.720] I mean, I'm not sure. [32:10.720 --> 32:12.720] Any of you have like teenage kids? [32:12.720 --> 32:15.720] Or am I just too old here? [32:15.720 --> 32:18.720] What do you think about the attention span those days? [32:18.720 --> 32:22.720] Okay, well, and remember, right? [32:22.720 --> 32:27.720] Those teenagers are probably already doing some work with computers, right? [32:27.720 --> 32:33.720] It's often thought as a middle school those days, some programming skills, right? [32:33.720 --> 32:37.720] And they will be going in the industry in the next few years. [32:37.720 --> 32:45.720] And the last thing I would mention, and that again maybe comes from my database background, right? [32:45.720 --> 32:51.720] Is making sure we also have a good experience if at day two operations, not just day one. [32:51.720 --> 32:56.720] In very many cases, I see there is a lot of application catalogues and where we say, [32:56.720 --> 33:00.720] hey, look at that, you can develop an application very quickly. [33:00.720 --> 33:04.720] But then if you really want to maintain that, it's like, you know, with database, [33:04.720 --> 33:07.720] you can't just tear it apart and deploy the new one. [33:07.720 --> 33:14.720] Well, that is something which can become instantly quite complicated, right, [33:14.720 --> 33:18.720] if it's not handled well. [33:18.720 --> 33:26.720] Well, with that, I will end with my call to action with pretty much saying what I started, right? [33:26.720 --> 33:33.720] I would encourage you to embrace the open source in the cloud, also invests, [33:33.720 --> 33:36.720] both in terms of your personal time and efforts and as well, [33:36.720 --> 33:41.720] motivating your company to invest in making it better. [33:41.720 --> 33:50.720] Because open source very much depends on our collective effort, right, for its success. [33:50.720 --> 33:55.720] And of course, spread the world, that is how the movement grows. [33:55.720 --> 34:02.720] Well, with that, it's all ahead and I would be happy to answer some questions. [34:02.720 --> 34:09.720] APPLAUSE [34:23.720 --> 34:26.720] Thank you very much for your talk. [34:26.720 --> 34:31.720] You said in your final slide that people should be investing in open source [34:31.720 --> 34:33.720] and invest in making it better. [34:33.720 --> 34:40.720] What are your thoughts on the new kind of trend you see of organisations like the Sovereign Tech Fund in Germany, [34:40.720 --> 34:44.720] allocating millions to open source projects and things like that? [34:44.720 --> 34:46.720] Where do you think the money should come from? [34:46.720 --> 34:49.720] Or is there a structured way it should actually be allocated? [34:49.720 --> 34:55.720] Well, so where should money come from, right, from open source? [34:55.720 --> 35:00.720] Well, look, I think there is a variety of things, right? [35:00.720 --> 35:04.720] I think if you look in this case like from the government standpoint, right, [35:04.720 --> 35:11.720] it's classically have been supporting, you know, public good with investment in research, [35:11.720 --> 35:13.720] right, the medicine, right, wherever. [35:13.720 --> 35:21.720] Like, I think the open source is one of such ways how you can create a lot of public good, right, [35:21.720 --> 35:24.720] which is wonderful. [35:24.720 --> 35:29.720] I think though, in many cases, probably the majority can come from, right, [35:29.720 --> 35:34.720] who are the public corporations, I don't know, probably private corporations, right, [35:34.720 --> 35:37.720] acting out of their own interests, right. [35:37.720 --> 35:42.720] I think in this case, we all need to also work with that kind of like mentality change, right, [35:42.720 --> 35:47.720] because you see like for years, right, even before like a Microsoft changed it [35:47.720 --> 35:53.720] and became like all, you know, we love open source kind of company, right. [35:53.720 --> 35:56.720] It was all about like, oh, open source is evil. [35:56.720 --> 36:01.720] It's like, you know, communist run open source, right, that's how you, you know, [36:01.720 --> 36:08.720] lose all your, you know, property, right, open sources insecure, yada, yada, yada, right. [36:08.720 --> 36:13.720] And I think that is something there that's kind of spread the word is important, right, [36:13.720 --> 36:18.720] is to making sure, well, that is actually none of those things, right, [36:18.720 --> 36:25.720] and really embrace an open source and the focus on the real open source can be very good, [36:25.720 --> 36:32.720] long term ROI for corporations, maybe not a short term, right, but the long term, right. [36:32.720 --> 36:35.720] Well, in this case, I probably want to mention one other thing, [36:35.720 --> 36:38.720] which I think there is still challenge those days, right. [36:38.720 --> 36:43.720] I think what the open source term is being bastardized, right. [36:43.720 --> 36:50.720] We can see many companies, they try to say, oh, our software is kind of almost as good as open source, right, [36:50.720 --> 36:59.720] but when they put you like, well, some very specially restrictive licenses, right, in this case, right, [36:59.720 --> 37:04.720] and we, right, or have like an open core when you have like a crippled open source, right, [37:04.720 --> 37:10.720] and real property software, and we need to make sure the company understand [37:10.720 --> 37:21.720] there is what is open source, right, and focus on growing that compared to those, well, others. [37:21.720 --> 37:26.720] Make sense? Thank you. [37:26.720 --> 37:29.720] Hello, thank you for the presentation. [37:29.720 --> 37:36.720] In the beginning, we started with a good willingness to make it very portable to other cloud [37:36.720 --> 37:39.720] and that kind of stuff, having the deployment that can be multi-cloud. [37:39.720 --> 37:48.720] And we missed something because at some point, the experts that were there to help us were pushing for some proprietary [37:48.720 --> 37:55.720] or non-compatible deployment, and we are totally stuck now in one cloud provider. [37:55.720 --> 38:01.720] How do you manage such a risk, and what would you put as a rule set at the beginning [38:01.720 --> 38:03.720] so that you would not fall in that pitfall? [38:03.720 --> 38:05.720] Yeah, well, I think that's a very question. [38:05.720 --> 38:09.720] I can say, hey, we made a mistake and now we are stuck, right? [38:09.720 --> 38:15.720] Well, the thing, I think in this case, right, if you're looking at portability, right, [38:15.720 --> 38:21.720] I think it's important what that portability is being tested, right? [38:21.720 --> 38:27.720] So in your case, right, if you say, hey, we are mostly on that one cloud vendor [38:27.720 --> 38:32.720] and we want to be able to move to have a cloud vendor if we need, [38:32.720 --> 38:37.720] well, that means what you need to regularly test your software that actually works on that cloud vendor. [38:37.720 --> 38:43.720] So if incompatibility and overreliance is introduced, you can instantly squash that. [38:43.720 --> 38:47.720] Because if you don't do it, right, then, you know, like a three-hour or three years later, right, [38:47.720 --> 38:50.720] when you finally want to do that, you can say, oh, my gosh, [38:50.720 --> 38:55.720] it actually turns out so much the things what we did not do, right? [38:55.720 --> 39:03.720] And I think in many cases, what is also important is what developers do not read docs, right? [39:03.720 --> 39:05.720] They tinker, right? [39:05.720 --> 39:10.720] And often then you think, like, oh, I am using this kind of feature, right, in this case. [39:10.720 --> 39:15.720] I assume it works everywhere, but maybe they are actually, you know, [39:15.720 --> 39:19.720] using something which only works in this particular place, right? [39:19.720 --> 39:21.720] That is why testing is important. [39:21.720 --> 39:25.720] You cannot rely on, you know, the developers, right? [39:25.720 --> 39:31.720] Or infrastructure engineers just, you know, using their subset they are supposed to be using. [39:37.720 --> 39:39.720] Okay. Well, thank you. [39:39.720 --> 39:40.720] One more. [39:40.720 --> 39:42.720] Oh, one more. Okay. [39:50.720 --> 39:52.720] Hi. Thank you. [39:52.720 --> 39:59.720] When we have some companies using proprietary Cloud provider, [39:59.720 --> 40:07.720] it is difficult for us to say that they need to move all their infrastructure, as you just said. [40:07.720 --> 40:11.720] So is it a problem of offer? [40:11.720 --> 40:20.720] It is a problem of the free software Cloud provider offer to provide some easy tools to use. [40:20.720 --> 40:26.720] Or it is really a problem of politics from the companies to say that, yeah, [40:26.720 --> 40:34.720] we should go to the difficult, but free software, how do we manage with that? [40:34.720 --> 40:38.720] Well, I mean, you are asking, like, is that like a technical question, right? [40:38.720 --> 40:40.720] Or is it politics, right? [40:40.720 --> 40:43.720] And the question is both, right? [40:43.720 --> 40:46.720] In this case, like, yes, I mean, if you look from a technical standpoint, [40:46.720 --> 40:57.720] I think there are easier ways of open-source software where more it is going to be easy to convince, [40:57.720 --> 40:59.720] adopt, write and so on and so forth. [40:59.720 --> 41:02.720] But in many cases, it is possible. [41:02.720 --> 41:04.720] It is also like a politics, right? [41:04.720 --> 41:09.720] Because there can be some entrenched interest for whatever reasons, right? [41:09.720 --> 41:12.720] Or some belief, right? [41:12.720 --> 41:15.720] I have seen a number of companies on my watch, right? [41:15.720 --> 41:20.720] They will say, oh, my gosh, we are running on, let's say, like a Microsoft stack. [41:20.720 --> 41:25.720] There is no freaking way it is possible we move to open-source, yada, yada, yada, yada, right? [41:25.720 --> 41:28.720] And then we have a new CTO, right? [41:28.720 --> 41:29.720] And boom, right? [41:29.720 --> 41:39.720] You can say in a few years, right, like more than half of workloads are moved to different open-source solutions, right? [41:39.720 --> 41:43.720] So I think in this case, like, if you look at what is a primary thing, right, [41:43.720 --> 41:49.720] it is politics and desire of a management, right? [41:49.720 --> 41:53.720] That is always primary. [41:53.720 --> 41:58.720] Okay. [41:58.720 --> 41:59.720] Thank you, Peter. [41:59.720 --> 42:00.720] Okay. [42:00.720 --> 42:01.720] Next on stage will be Fabio.