[00:00.000 --> 00:11.080]  I just have to mention that our board has put out a recruitment call, a call for nominations.
[00:11.080 --> 00:15.360]  We're trying to expand our board, so if you go to FSF.org, it'll be the top news item.
[00:15.360 --> 00:20.560]  It's something I just want to plug before I get started.
[00:20.560 --> 00:22.760]  We also hosted another conference in a month.
[00:22.760 --> 00:25.800]  You'll see some information about that too.
[00:26.560 --> 00:40.400]  My talk is about SAS, and that stands for Public Speaking.
[00:40.400 --> 00:43.720]  It takes just a minute.
[00:43.720 --> 00:50.040]  A service as a software substitute.
[00:50.040 --> 00:58.600]  What that means is when you use a service and you use it to substitute for your own computing.
[00:58.600 --> 01:03.800]  That's a little abstract, so it's best if I give an example.
[01:03.800 --> 01:07.760]  The one I like to give is a photo editing service.
[01:07.760 --> 01:13.200]  Say you go to a website, you upload a photo, you tell it you want to turn it black and white,
[01:13.200 --> 01:19.560]  and you click a button, it does it, and then you click download and you've got the photo.
[01:19.560 --> 01:30.560]  Well, that computation done on the server is something that you should control with a free photo editing program, like GIMP.
[01:30.560 --> 01:41.080]  When you use a service like that, you give away your software freedom in a very similar way to using a proprietary program on your computer.
[01:42.080 --> 01:50.080]  But in some ways it's even worse, because the server operator, it's automatically spyware, has all your data,
[01:50.080 --> 01:55.080]  and it automatically has a backdoor to make changes at any time.
[01:55.080 --> 02:00.080]  So in some ways even worse than a proprietary software.
[02:00.080 --> 02:12.080]  So I want to talk about, that's sort of the basic case, but I'm going to assume you understand software freedom a bit,
[02:12.080 --> 02:17.080]  so I'm going to go into some more other cases.
[02:17.080 --> 02:23.080]  So let's talk about first some basic examples of when something is not SAS.
[02:23.080 --> 02:33.080]  So when somebody else is inherently involved in the activity, that's kind of usually a good giveaway.
[02:33.080 --> 02:36.080]  So communication service is an example.
[02:36.080 --> 02:39.080]  Say I want to send you a message across the internet.
[02:39.080 --> 02:42.080]  We need some intermediary to write that message.
[02:42.080 --> 02:48.080]  I don't have a direct connection to everybody else, so somebody has to provide a service to do that.
[02:48.080 --> 02:51.080]  It's necessary.
[02:51.080 --> 02:55.080]  Another good example is publication.
[02:55.080 --> 03:00.080]  So I give you some data, I send you an email, I say you can publish it.
[03:00.080 --> 03:06.080]  Well there's nothing wrong with you doing that, versus me doing that, it's just publishing information.
[03:06.080 --> 03:17.080]  Now some websites offer multiple services, and well, or one, they call it one service, but it has many different use cases.
[03:17.080 --> 03:20.080]  Some are SAS, and some aren't.
[03:20.080 --> 03:25.080]  So let me digress just for a second.
[03:25.080 --> 03:28.080]  This SAS has nothing to do with the SAS with two Ss.
[03:28.080 --> 03:34.080]  It was kind of meant to be a bad pun, and it didn't work out that great,
[03:34.080 --> 03:40.080]  but just know that when I'm saying SAS, I'm talking about the SAS with the three Ss,
[03:40.080 --> 03:43.080]  and you just have to understand by context.
[03:43.080 --> 03:48.080]  So as I was saying, some services have multiple use cases.
[03:48.080 --> 03:50.080]  Some are SAS, some aren't.
[03:50.080 --> 03:53.080]  An example would be the website Flickr.
[03:53.080 --> 04:02.080]  It's meant to share photos, publication, not SAS, but then it also has photo editing features that is SAS, as I talked about.
[04:02.080 --> 04:07.080]  So let's move on to another example, a backup service.
[04:07.080 --> 04:15.080]  So a backup service is something people often like to run themselves.
[04:15.080 --> 04:17.080]  So you think, well, is it SAS?
[04:17.080 --> 04:18.080]  Is it not?
[04:18.080 --> 04:25.080]  Well, if the point of the backup service is to give you back your files exactly as you gave it to them,
[04:25.080 --> 04:31.080]  then it's not SAS, because there's no computation there that you should control
[04:31.080 --> 04:35.080]  if you're only hoping to get back the exact same data that you gave it.
[04:35.080 --> 04:37.080]  The result wouldn't be any different.
[04:37.080 --> 04:41.080]  Now, you may want to run that backup service for reasons other than SAS.
[04:41.080 --> 04:43.080]  Maybe you think it's more reliable.
[04:43.080 --> 04:45.080]  Maybe you think you have some privacy there.
[04:45.080 --> 04:50.080]  And that's one of the complications with SAS, and services in general,
[04:50.080 --> 04:55.080]  is that there are other concerns besides SAS that are often very important to people.
[04:55.080 --> 04:59.080]  So it makes it a little difficult to talk about.
[04:59.080 --> 05:04.080]  That's part of the reason I'm talking about it today.
[05:04.080 --> 05:10.080]  How about the case of a database as a database service?
[05:10.080 --> 05:13.080]  For example, a SQL database service.
[05:13.080 --> 05:21.080]  Well, in this case, SQL queries are actually complex computation.
[05:21.080 --> 05:23.080]  There's huge manuals for them.
[05:23.080 --> 05:28.080]  Exactly how they work matters to the people using it.
[05:28.080 --> 05:30.080]  They want specific database programs.
[05:30.080 --> 05:32.080]  They care about what the version is running.
[05:32.080 --> 05:34.080]  They care about how that computation is run.
[05:34.080 --> 05:39.080]  So yes, it would be a SAS if it's a database service.
[05:39.080 --> 05:46.080]  But then think about contrast, a backup service, and a database service.
[05:46.080 --> 05:51.080]  So say you use a database service, but you use it like a backup service.
[05:51.080 --> 05:56.080]  You just dump some data into a single table, and you just retrieve that table.
[05:56.080 --> 06:01.080]  Well, then you're using it like a backup service, and suddenly it's not SAS anymore.
[06:01.080 --> 06:08.080]  So what we have to think about is the primary purpose of how you're using the service.
[06:08.080 --> 06:20.080]  And when I say primary purpose, that brings me to a secondary purpose.
[06:20.080 --> 06:24.080]  Well, it's not really a secondary purpose that I want to talk about.
[06:24.080 --> 06:29.080]  But let me bring up another example.
[06:29.080 --> 06:33.080]  Say you upload some files to your backup service.
[06:33.080 --> 06:38.080]  And then you say to the backup service, what files do I have?
[06:38.080 --> 06:43.080]  And the backup service returns you a list of files sorted alphabetically.
[06:43.080 --> 06:50.080]  Well, if you had a list of files on your computer and you wanted it sorted,
[06:50.080 --> 06:53.080]  well, that would be something you would want to do on your computer.
[06:53.080 --> 06:57.080]  You'd want to run the sorting algorithm, something you should control.
[06:57.080 --> 06:59.080]  How it's sorted definitely matters to you.
[06:59.080 --> 07:00.080]  That's your computation.
[07:00.080 --> 07:06.080]  But then when the backup service does it, well, it has to tell you those files,
[07:06.080 --> 07:09.080]  and it has to sort them somehow.
[07:09.080 --> 07:12.080]  It has to give you to them in some sorted order.
[07:12.080 --> 07:21.080]  So in this case, it's doing computation that is what I call incidental computing.
[07:21.080 --> 07:23.080]  It's not your primary purpose.
[07:23.080 --> 07:26.080]  Your purpose is just to find out what files are on the backup service.
[07:26.080 --> 07:31.080]  Incidentally, there has to be some computing done in that process,
[07:31.080 --> 07:36.080]  which happens to also be like computing you would do on your own computer
[07:36.080 --> 07:38.080]  if you were running locally.
[07:38.080 --> 07:42.080]  But it's not the primary purpose of using that service.
[07:42.080 --> 07:44.080]  So it wouldn't be SAS.
[07:44.080 --> 07:47.080]  Another way to call it was ancillary computing.
[07:47.080 --> 07:50.080]  And so when you pick apart a service in its use cases,
[07:50.080 --> 08:00.080]  this is one way to narrow down the issue to whether something is SAS or it's not SAS.
[08:00.080 --> 08:03.080]  Now, for another more complicated example,
[08:03.080 --> 08:07.080]  I've been talking about the computing of an individual person,
[08:07.080 --> 08:14.080]  but groups can come together for a common purpose, form an organization or a project,
[08:14.080 --> 08:18.080]  and then they use a server to collaborate with each other.
[08:18.080 --> 08:26.080]  And an example of this would be Wikipedia, which runs, well, media Wiki,
[08:26.080 --> 08:30.080]  and Wikipedia and groups who run media Wiki.
[08:30.080 --> 08:38.080]  Now, that service has features like document editing,
[08:38.080 --> 08:42.080]  different diffing documents, conflict resolution.
[08:42.080 --> 08:47.080]  Those are the type of computing, if you were working on your own,
[08:47.080 --> 08:50.080]  something you would want to control on your computer,
[08:50.080 --> 08:56.080]  but because you're working collaboratively with a group,
[08:56.080 --> 09:01.080]  you could say the group's computing,
[09:01.080 --> 09:10.080]  and that group should be able to control its own computing by running its own server and the software on it.
[09:11.080 --> 09:14.080]  You could say when you join in with that group,
[09:14.080 --> 09:18.080]  you're a member of that group and you're collaborating and doing that group's computing,
[09:18.080 --> 09:21.080]  so you can use those sort of features together.
[09:21.080 --> 09:25.080]  And this is a little bit hard to think about,
[09:25.080 --> 09:31.080]  because sometimes your computing versus a group's computing can get a little blurry sometimes,
[09:31.080 --> 09:37.080]  but it's important to realize and think about.
[09:37.080 --> 09:44.080]  So, onto another example, think about bug tracking, a bug tracker.
[09:44.080 --> 09:52.080]  This is a very common piece of software that developers use.
[09:52.080 --> 10:02.080]  Now, one way that a bug tracker could work or does work for some projects
[10:02.080 --> 10:06.080]  is they have a mailing list where they say,
[10:06.080 --> 10:11.080]  bugs go to this mailing list, so somebody sends an email to the mailing list,
[10:11.080 --> 10:15.080]  say, I have a bug, and somebody responds and says, yes, I agree, that's a bug,
[10:15.080 --> 10:18.080]  or somebody says, no, I don't think so, and they discuss it.
[10:18.080 --> 10:24.080]  Well, this is just a form of communication and publication,
[10:24.080 --> 10:29.080]  like a normal mailing list, and I wouldn't call that sass.
[10:29.080 --> 10:37.080]  But consider a software like Bugzilla,
[10:37.080 --> 10:43.080]  or it doesn't work that way, especially with a larger project,
[10:43.080 --> 10:49.080]  you customize it so that it has maybe even hundreds of fields,
[10:49.080 --> 10:58.080]  and the people who are administering it are doing complicated queries,
[10:58.080 --> 11:05.080]  on all of the bugs, running queries that will modify all the bugs,
[11:05.080 --> 11:09.080]  reassign them, and then it's starting to look like a database with a front-end,
[11:09.080 --> 11:14.080]  a complicated database with a front-end, and then I would call that sass.
[11:14.080 --> 11:23.080]  And this, I think, brings up a little bit of a problem in that it's very difficult to,
[11:24.080 --> 11:27.080]  you know, a lot of projects want software projects,
[11:27.080 --> 11:33.080]  want sophisticated software for their project,
[11:33.080 --> 11:37.080]  but they don't necessarily have the means to run that software,
[11:37.080 --> 11:44.080]  and like a Bugzilla, because complicated software is complicated to run,
[11:44.080 --> 11:48.080]  especially as a service, because you have data, you have backups,
[11:48.080 --> 11:52.080]  you have all of the details of running complicated software.
[11:52.080 --> 12:00.080]  So in that case, it's like, are a lot of projects out there actually running sass,
[12:00.080 --> 12:01.080]  giving up their freedom?
[12:01.080 --> 12:10.080]  Well, yes, basically, but it's an area where we have a long way to go, I think.
[12:10.080 --> 12:16.080]  And a good way to deal with that situation is for projects to come together
[12:16.080 --> 12:23.080]  in sort of a larger project that is in their collective interests.
[12:23.080 --> 12:31.080]  So some of the software I run, or I help run, like the GNU project,
[12:31.080 --> 12:34.080]  where many software packages come together,
[12:34.080 --> 12:37.080]  share the infrastructure that's going to be in all of their interests,
[12:37.080 --> 12:45.080]  and that way they're sort of doing a group computation together for like a bug tracker.
[12:45.080 --> 12:52.080]  But now this brings me to an example of GitHub.
[12:52.080 --> 12:59.080]  So when I think of GitHub, I look around at the GitHub service,
[12:59.080 --> 13:03.080]  and I think there are a few features that are clearly sass.
[13:03.080 --> 13:06.080]  One, some obvious examples would be continuous integration.
[13:06.080 --> 13:09.080]  That's like they kind of give you a virtual machine and say,
[13:09.080 --> 13:11.080]  run some code on your software.
[13:11.080 --> 13:18.080]  And well, if the code that you're running, well, is their code,
[13:18.080 --> 13:22.080]  then I guess that brings up another topic of virtual machines,
[13:22.080 --> 13:26.080]  which are not sass if you control them.
[13:26.080 --> 13:30.080]  And another feature of GitHub would be like,
[13:30.080 --> 13:36.080]  they have a feature to tell you which functions in two repositories are different.
[13:36.080 --> 13:43.080]  Well, clearly that would be sass because it's parsing the language of the repositories.
[13:43.080 --> 13:47.080]  It's doing a complicated function level diff on them.
[13:47.080 --> 13:52.080]  And then some other features I think would not be sass,
[13:52.080 --> 13:56.080]  like simply publishing a Git repository.
[13:56.080 --> 14:02.080]  That's just a publication of information, not sass.
[14:02.080 --> 14:05.080]  And then their bug tracker, for example.
[14:05.080 --> 14:11.080]  I think in its basic form, it works very much like a simple form,
[14:11.080 --> 14:15.080]  like a mailing list that one person posts and another person replies.
[14:15.080 --> 14:18.080]  And I would call that just a communication service.
[14:18.080 --> 14:23.080]  But I'm not too familiar with all of the advanced features of GitHub,
[14:23.080 --> 14:26.080]  but I get the suspicion that some of the, maybe,
[14:26.080 --> 14:31.080]  there might be some features of the bug tracker which go into the sass area
[14:31.080 --> 14:36.080]  when it gets more complicated, when you're an advanced user of all of the features there.
[14:36.080 --> 14:39.080]  So I haven't picked apart every piece of GitHub,
[14:39.080 --> 14:43.080]  and it takes some time to do that analysis, which I haven't done.
[14:43.080 --> 14:48.080]  But in general, this brings me to the next topic,
[14:48.080 --> 14:53.080]  is that, well, I don't know how many minutes do I have left?
[14:53.080 --> 14:54.080]  Ten minutes.
[14:54.080 --> 14:56.080]  Ten minutes? Great.
[14:56.080 --> 15:03.080]  Okay, so I think I'm done with some basic examples of analyzing sass or not,
[15:03.080 --> 15:10.080]  and I'm happy to talk to people because there sometimes aren't bright lines.
[15:10.080 --> 15:20.080]  And it's a little blurrier than with determining if a piece of software is free or not,
[15:20.080 --> 15:24.080]  but it's not like there isn't blurry lines in that either.
[15:24.080 --> 15:27.080]  So I think it's just something we have to deal with.
[15:27.080 --> 15:30.080]  It's part of a lot of ethical issues, have their gray areas,
[15:30.080 --> 15:33.080]  and I just happen to be highlighting them.
[15:33.080 --> 15:34.080]  That's all.
[15:34.080 --> 15:40.080]  I don't think it's an inherent problem with sass at all, with the concept of sass.
[15:40.080 --> 15:45.080]  So now I want to bring up one common misconception,
[15:45.080 --> 15:50.080]  is that a service which publishes some free source code that it says it's running
[15:50.080 --> 15:54.080]  means that the users of the service have software freedom.
[15:54.080 --> 15:56.080]  They don't.
[15:56.080 --> 15:58.080]  The users don't control that service.
[15:58.080 --> 16:01.080]  They can't tell it what program to run.
[16:01.080 --> 16:07.080]  You can only do that with a program on a server you control or on your own computer.
[16:07.080 --> 16:12.080]  And there may be important code that it runs besides what's published.
[16:12.080 --> 16:19.080]  I mean, generally, servers are not publishing the operating system or other things.
[16:20.080 --> 16:23.080]  The first reason I gave is basically the fundamental one,
[16:23.080 --> 16:26.080]  but some other ones are that.
[16:26.080 --> 16:31.080]  And of course, you can't ever be sure what somebody else's server is doing.
[16:31.080 --> 16:33.080]  You haven't installed the program.
[16:33.080 --> 16:35.080]  You can't be 100% sure.
[16:35.080 --> 16:43.080]  It's different than running your own code on a server you control.
[16:43.080 --> 16:45.080]  So for services that are not sass,
[16:45.080 --> 16:48.080]  I'm going to talk about this idea of publishing source code
[16:48.080 --> 16:52.080]  and think about the difference and the interaction between sass
[16:52.080 --> 16:55.080]  and the publishing of service source code.
[16:55.080 --> 17:02.080]  So when we think about publishing service source code,
[17:02.080 --> 17:06.080]  I think about the AGPL, which says you have to publish the source code
[17:06.080 --> 17:10.080]  if it's a service to the users of it.
[17:10.080 --> 17:17.080]  And what we say is that the publishing of source code benefits the community
[17:17.080 --> 17:22.080]  so that they could use that source code.
[17:22.080 --> 17:31.080]  And that benefit is so important to people being able to use that code
[17:31.080 --> 17:35.080]  that it's worth mandating with AGPL.
[17:35.080 --> 17:45.080]  And we recommend it for all software that is intended to be run as a service.
[17:45.080 --> 17:52.080]  And in fact, now, not thinking about the sass issue,
[17:52.080 --> 17:58.080]  but just in general, if I encounter a service and I say,
[17:58.080 --> 18:03.080]  I think, would there be any reason somebody else besides the server operator
[18:03.080 --> 18:06.080]  would want to run it?
[18:06.080 --> 18:11.080]  If there is, if there's a plausible case of that,
[18:11.080 --> 18:17.080]  I think, well, then are they publishing the source code?
[18:17.080 --> 18:19.080]  If they aren't, why not?
[18:19.080 --> 18:23.080]  I mean, why do they not want to benefit the community?
[18:23.080 --> 18:29.080]  And another benefit that brings,
[18:29.080 --> 18:35.080]  I think the biggest one is if the service is working well, good.
[18:35.080 --> 18:41.080]  Maybe there's some fundamental services we all rely on, like DNS services.
[18:41.080 --> 18:47.080]  But then if the service stops working,
[18:47.080 --> 18:52.080]  it adds conditions that people don't want to agree to.
[18:52.080 --> 18:55.080]  It adds, it changes.
[18:55.080 --> 18:59.080]  Well, then the publishing of source code is sort of an insurance policy
[18:59.080 --> 19:03.080]  that somebody else could start up a new service and users could move over there.
[19:03.080 --> 19:08.080]  And that is so important that I think it's worth considering that in general
[19:08.080 --> 19:12.080]  whenever for any service, which is separate than the sass issue.
[19:12.080 --> 19:19.080]  So, and I think if we take a service like GitHub, I think that's obvious.
[19:19.080 --> 19:22.080]  Of course, people would want to run their own GitHub,
[19:22.080 --> 19:29.080]  but so why we shouldn't accept a GitHub that doesn't have the service source code published.
[19:29.080 --> 19:36.080]  It's just foolish to subject yourself to the whims of that service operator
[19:36.080 --> 19:41.080]  without having some sort of insurance to go somewhere else,
[19:41.080 --> 19:46.080]  even if you aren't using it as a sass way.
[19:46.080 --> 19:55.080]  So, I'm going to move on to my next topic, which basically I think the sass
[19:55.080 --> 20:01.080]  has not gotten enough attention in free software advocacy.
[20:01.080 --> 20:04.080]  And why hasn't? I think there's lots of reasons.
[20:04.080 --> 20:07.080]  I talked a little bit about the complexity.
[20:07.080 --> 20:12.080]  I think sass was far less common in the past.
[20:12.080 --> 20:18.080]  Nowadays, most services tend to require non-free software as a client,
[20:18.080 --> 20:20.080]  usually in the form of JavaScript.
[20:20.080 --> 20:28.080]  And that's, so services in general have caused a lot of problems for software freedom,
[20:28.080 --> 20:30.080]  other problems besides sass.
[20:30.080 --> 20:37.080]  So, but like I said, I think sass needs to get more attention because it's becoming more prevalent.
[20:37.080 --> 20:41.080]  Database services have, in the past few years, become very popular.
[20:41.080 --> 20:45.080]  Before that, it was much more common to run your own database.
[20:45.080 --> 20:49.080]  A lot of people are relying on these services, which are sass.
[20:49.080 --> 20:57.080]  And so, oh, I think one interesting historical reason for lack of focus on sass
[20:57.080 --> 21:01.080]  is that, well, it's not part of the GPL.
[21:01.080 --> 21:04.080]  It's not part of any license.
[21:04.080 --> 21:09.080]  When the GPL was being drafted, the FSF had its lawyers
[21:09.080 --> 21:14.080]  try and think of a way to add in a provision against sass,
[21:14.080 --> 21:16.080]  and they couldn't think of a way to do it.
[21:16.080 --> 21:19.080]  Now, so they just didn't.
[21:19.080 --> 21:22.080]  And so when we say the GPL protects your freedom,
[21:22.080 --> 21:25.080]  well, there's one little hidden asterisk there,
[21:25.080 --> 21:28.080]  as long as you don't give it away in a sass.
[21:28.080 --> 21:33.080]  And I'd be curious to know some of the lawyers,
[21:33.080 --> 21:36.080]  maybe some lawyers here today, if they still think that's the case.
[21:36.080 --> 21:39.080]  If there's no way to have a sass provision in a license,
[21:39.080 --> 21:41.080]  I'd be curious to what that is.
[21:41.080 --> 21:44.080]  I mean, it's the one case, I think, of the FSF saying,
[21:44.080 --> 21:46.080]  here's an important issue.
[21:46.080 --> 21:48.080]  We couldn't write into the license.
[21:48.080 --> 21:53.080]  I haven't heard many people talk about how that could be done.
[21:53.080 --> 21:56.080]  Maybe not covering all sass, but some portion of it.
[21:56.080 --> 21:57.080]  I don't know.
[21:57.080 --> 22:04.080]  I'm not a lawyer, but I would love to hear from some.
[22:04.080 --> 22:07.080]  So how can we give sass more attention?
[22:07.080 --> 22:08.080]  I don't have all the answers.
[22:08.080 --> 22:09.080]  It's just a couple ideas.
[22:09.080 --> 22:12.080]  I think number one is just to simply call it out more.
[22:12.080 --> 22:15.080]  When a company has a sass business model to say,
[22:15.080 --> 22:17.080]  hey, their business model is sass.
[22:17.080 --> 22:19.080]  That's taking away people's freedom.
[22:19.080 --> 22:22.080]  That's a very simple way.
[22:22.080 --> 22:30.080]  Another idea I have is that there's this term self-hosting,
[22:30.080 --> 22:35.080]  which basically seems to cover the idea of sass plus other things.
[22:35.080 --> 22:39.080]  It's the idea of services, run yourself.
[22:39.080 --> 22:43.080]  And sometimes it's even expanded to just non-services,
[22:43.080 --> 22:46.080]  a sass services that should be run on your own computer
[22:46.080 --> 22:48.080]  and not as a service at all and running themselves,
[22:48.080 --> 22:50.080]  and people call that self-hosting.
[22:50.080 --> 22:54.080]  So the idea of self-hosting kind of covers sass plus other things.
[22:54.080 --> 22:57.080]  So I think also advocating for self-hosting
[22:57.080 --> 23:04.080]  and saying self-hosting overlaps very well with software freedom
[23:04.080 --> 23:08.080]  is a way that we can advocate against sass
[23:08.080 --> 23:13.080]  without having to deal with the complexity of sass itself,
[23:13.080 --> 23:17.080]  of explaining it fully.
[23:17.080 --> 23:23.080]  And I'm getting to the end of my talk here.
[23:23.080 --> 23:25.080]  I think most of the ideas I want to share,
[23:25.080 --> 23:27.080]  I'd be happy to talk to people afterwards.
[23:27.080 --> 23:30.080]  And one shout-out to a specific program, GNU Units,
[23:30.080 --> 23:34.080]  which is a small sass that many people use.
[23:34.080 --> 23:39.080]  They ask Google or Search Engine to convert between Celsius or Fahrenheit.
[23:39.080 --> 23:41.080]  And there's a program you can do that on your own computer
[23:41.080 --> 23:44.080]  called GNU Units, so look it up.
[23:44.080 --> 23:46.080]  And that's all I've got.
[23:46.080 --> 23:48.080]  Thank you very much.