[00:00.000 --> 00:14.520] Okay. Good. Thank you. Well, I'm Gal Blondel. I work for the Eclipse Foundation. [00:14.520 --> 00:22.440] Hello. Can you hear me? Is it working fine? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm the other one. [00:22.440 --> 00:29.880] Alberto from Open Nebula. And the topic today, so actually that was a proposal from Alberto. [00:29.880 --> 00:37.520] About how about we talk together at FOSDEM about European open source. [00:37.520 --> 00:43.240] So I think you proposed the topic and I proposed the title, which is, [00:43.240 --> 00:50.200] is European open source a thing? Because, well, over the last, I don't know, [00:50.200 --> 00:56.160] two, three years, maybe more, I have been in lots of events [00:56.160 --> 01:00.320] where I see people who want to do more open source [01:00.320 --> 01:03.480] because the thing that open source is good for Europe. [01:03.480 --> 01:08.520] But at some point, there is always somebody who starts with the idea that, [01:08.520 --> 01:13.120] well, open source is cool, but what about we would do open source [01:13.120 --> 01:19.120] and try to limit it to European companies, to European stakeholders or stuff like that. [01:19.120 --> 01:23.000] And so that's what we want to discuss today. [01:23.000 --> 01:28.160] So we prepared it like a list of questions. [01:28.160 --> 01:31.840] We expect that some of you maybe want to change our point of view. [01:31.840 --> 01:38.240] I think that we will have different point of views on some of the topics. [01:38.240 --> 01:44.720] And, well, let's start. Do you want to define European open source? [01:44.720 --> 01:49.880] Okay. Well, I would like to explain a bit how selfish I am [01:49.880 --> 01:54.640] because this whole session, for me, personally, is second. [01:54.640 --> 01:56.880] Microphone is not on. [01:56.880 --> 01:58.760] I think it's on, but just... [01:58.760 --> 02:01.520] Try to speak as loud as you can. [02:01.520 --> 02:03.680] Louder, like that. [02:03.680 --> 02:05.280] And you hear me without the microphone. [02:05.280 --> 02:08.520] No, but you need to use the microphone because we are recorded. [02:08.520 --> 02:12.400] The live stream, but everybody can hear, even though the microphone isn't on. [02:12.400 --> 02:13.240] Yes? [02:13.240 --> 02:15.360] No, in fact, you have to really reject. [02:15.360 --> 02:16.520] Or share the volume. [02:16.520 --> 02:18.680] Yeah, let's share that one. No problem. [02:18.680 --> 02:21.760] That would be a bit painful, but we're sharing stuff. [02:21.760 --> 02:26.200] Okay, so I just wanted to explain for me, personally, what this session means. [02:26.200 --> 02:33.520] As Gael has mentioned, the concept of European open source has been around for a while. [02:33.520 --> 02:39.600] It's been in the last, yeah, three, four years that it's been discussed [02:39.600 --> 02:44.200] within this kind of new geopolitical environment in which we all live now. [02:44.200 --> 02:47.200] Also, especially at European level. [02:47.200 --> 02:52.160] So, for me, I'm one of the people that's actually pushing for this concept [02:52.160 --> 02:54.960] to be something different from other stuff. [02:54.960 --> 03:00.840] But I also, I can confess, I have my doubts about how we define European open source [03:00.840 --> 03:05.960] and whether that is something that might be divisive or counterproductive. [03:05.960 --> 03:10.480] Even have my position, let's say, and that's also part of my job. [03:10.480 --> 03:13.720] And I'm happy to say, both from my personal level and professional level, [03:13.720 --> 03:16.480] I agree on the things I can defend. [03:16.480 --> 03:19.760] But I also have, as a European, some doubts about this [03:19.760 --> 03:22.120] and what this might imply for the open source sector. [03:22.120 --> 03:25.840] So, for me, this session is also about learning what all of you think about this. [03:25.840 --> 03:29.640] And that's because we thought that it was about time to have an open discussion [03:29.640 --> 03:32.600] and an open debate within the European open source community [03:32.600 --> 03:37.120] to the implications that this concept might have. [03:37.120 --> 03:40.400] Yes, so maybe just a few words about me. [03:40.400 --> 03:47.240] So, I work for the Eclipse Foundation, which moved to its legal incorporation [03:47.240 --> 03:49.040] to Brussels two years ago. [03:49.040 --> 03:56.160] So, and that's very important for us that we are a global organization [03:56.160 --> 03:57.520] established in Brussels. [03:57.520 --> 04:01.720] Because when it comes to the answer to what is European open source, [04:01.720 --> 04:06.720] I think that from my perspective, at least open source and free software, [04:06.720 --> 04:13.160] that's everything we do where you can use, study, modify, and redistribute the software. [04:13.160 --> 04:15.160] And there is nothing to do with Europe. [04:15.160 --> 04:19.120] So, that must be done in Europe, outside Europe. [04:19.120 --> 04:22.480] Everything that is written in Europe should be usable everywhere else. [04:22.480 --> 04:24.760] We should be able to use. [04:24.760 --> 04:29.560] So, that's really sticking to the definitions of the FSF [04:29.560 --> 04:35.120] and the definition of the, well, and the open source definition. [04:35.120 --> 04:44.360] So, still, I think that we can have a specific approach to open source in Europe. [04:44.360 --> 04:51.360] That's how we help European organizations, how we help European companies do more [04:51.360 --> 04:52.880] and understand better in open source. [04:52.880 --> 04:58.960] And that's also why I wanted to start with this topic, [04:58.960 --> 05:04.480] because every time I go in a conference, I have been in conferences [05:04.480 --> 05:10.760] where people were telling, yeah, well, we get money, we invest in open source, [05:10.760 --> 05:15.720] and then we have the problem that what we do in open source could be reused [05:15.720 --> 05:17.320] by non-European companies. [05:17.320 --> 05:19.720] And thinking, oh, my God. [05:19.720 --> 05:21.720] Oh, that's so fucking wrong. [05:21.720 --> 05:25.280] Why do you do that? [05:25.280 --> 05:26.240] Why do you do that? [05:26.240 --> 05:31.760] So, that's really one part of the message I wanted to share today. [05:31.760 --> 05:34.000] I think we agree on that. [05:34.000 --> 05:42.680] Still, I think that we should be more diligent in Europe about helping European organizations, [05:42.680 --> 05:48.080] helping European companies, helping universities do open source, [05:48.080 --> 05:52.200] produce open source, publish open source, and also be more ambitious [05:52.200 --> 06:01.040] about how to use open source as a vector to project technologies [06:01.040 --> 06:05.400] and to project ideas in the rest of the world. [06:05.400 --> 06:09.360] We can come back to that. [06:09.360 --> 06:11.440] Yeah, so I think, I mean, from my perspective, [06:11.440 --> 06:14.080] coming from the European open source industry sector, [06:14.080 --> 06:18.400] let's say, as a technology provider, as a company that produces open source [06:18.400 --> 06:22.920] and makes money out of the services we provide to customers with this, [06:22.920 --> 06:26.360] I mean, I think we share that concern that, I mean, [06:26.360 --> 06:30.720] open source cannot be something that in any way limits who's going to use that [06:30.720 --> 06:35.560] or puts any barriers to who can improve the technology [06:35.560 --> 06:37.720] or contribute to that technology. [06:37.720 --> 06:44.040] From my perspective, I mean, I've also been involved at several of the European initiatives [06:44.040 --> 06:47.280] for things like data sovereignty and cloud sovereignty, [06:47.280 --> 06:51.920] these kinds of discussions, things like the European Alliance for Industrial Data, [06:51.920 --> 06:52.560] Edge and Cloud. [06:52.560 --> 06:55.760] That's something that the European Commission launched a couple of years ago. [06:55.760 --> 07:01.160] So for me and other people in the sector, I would say, [07:01.160 --> 07:05.200] I think exploring this concept of what European open source means [07:05.200 --> 07:09.080] is kind of a natural step after we discuss the problem we have in the market now [07:09.080 --> 07:11.080] with cloud providers. [07:11.080 --> 07:16.160] So from our perspective, we recognize, we identify there's a market failure [07:16.160 --> 07:20.560] in Europe in terms of access to different cloud providers [07:20.560 --> 07:23.800] or the dominance of a number of non-European hyperscalers. [07:23.800 --> 07:25.640] You all know the names. [07:25.640 --> 07:31.400] Let's fix that because the European players are playing in this advantage here. [07:31.400 --> 07:34.800] So for us, the next step is, OK, so what are the technologies [07:34.800 --> 07:37.520] that European cloud providers are using? [07:37.520 --> 07:40.280] Are those led by European organizations? [07:40.280 --> 07:43.120] Are those roadmaps defined in Europe? [07:43.120 --> 07:49.320] Or are those technologies defined and implemented by non-EU companies and organizations? [07:49.320 --> 07:52.880] So for us, it was like the next step, like, OK, what if we apply this sense [07:52.880 --> 07:56.640] of this concept of sovereignty of technological autonomy, let's say, [07:56.640 --> 08:00.720] also to the, not just the proprietary software, but the open source software [08:00.720 --> 08:06.400] that supports all these cloud infrastructures in European cloud providers, [08:06.400 --> 08:08.560] but all the companies as well. [08:08.560 --> 08:09.520] Can we do that? [08:09.520 --> 08:15.000] I mean, can we get some understanding of what that will imply for Europe [08:15.000 --> 08:18.040] in terms of getting the industry involved in producing and maintaining [08:18.040 --> 08:21.720] the technologies that they consume, not just being mere spectators [08:21.720 --> 08:26.000] of what all the companies and organizations produce outside Europe most of the times? [08:26.000 --> 08:31.640] So that was the kind of the next discussion we had. [08:31.640 --> 08:38.160] Any questions at some point or maybe somebody wants to shout or say something? [08:38.160 --> 08:38.880] What do you think? [08:38.880 --> 08:41.880] What do you feel about the concept of European open source? [08:41.880 --> 08:46.480] It's an oxymoron. [08:46.480 --> 08:47.680] Why? [08:47.680 --> 08:48.680] Good. [08:48.680 --> 08:50.560] Can you repeat what you hear? [08:50.560 --> 08:51.880] It's an oxymoron, he said. [08:51.880 --> 08:54.040] It's an oxymoron. [08:54.040 --> 08:55.040] Why? [08:55.040 --> 08:57.800] I explain why it's an oxymoron. [08:57.800 --> 09:03.080] Yeah, I just don't understand why you put that adjective in front of this now, right? [09:03.080 --> 09:07.400] I mean, that's like, you can do that, it makes chromatic sense, [09:07.400 --> 09:12.600] but I don't understand what the meaning would be. [09:12.600 --> 09:14.080] Mm-hmm. [09:14.080 --> 09:15.400] And I can. [09:15.400 --> 09:18.240] So for me it's, OK, this is still not working at all. [09:18.240 --> 09:20.040] Yeah, it's in the live screen. [09:20.040 --> 09:23.040] Yeah, it's working for the live stream. [09:23.040 --> 09:27.160] I think we agree. [09:27.160 --> 09:32.920] And to be honest, that's not the controversial part in it. [09:32.920 --> 09:39.400] I think that, and to the point is that, yes, open source is global [09:39.400 --> 09:48.840] and everything that intends to limit open source scope is certainly not what we want. [09:48.840 --> 09:57.040] Still, that's more to not take it as an adjective, but to take it as a, OK, [09:57.040 --> 09:59.520] we have open source, open source is global. [09:59.520 --> 10:06.160] And what we may want as European citizen working for a global organization [10:06.160 --> 10:13.160] or as another European citizen with leading a European company, [10:13.160 --> 10:21.800] what we may want is to have a different strategy, like an industry strategy, [10:21.800 --> 10:29.880] to sustain and develop open source better, differently in Europe. [10:29.880 --> 10:33.240] And so I completely agree with that. [10:33.240 --> 10:33.680] Yeah. [10:33.680 --> 10:40.960] And so that you should have policies and frameworks and a whole bunch of other types of things. [10:40.960 --> 10:44.520] So let's use that example, right? [10:44.520 --> 10:50.960] Water forms the shape of the container that it's putting, right? [10:50.960 --> 10:57.320] So when one talks about what water is, right, [10:57.320 --> 11:01.440] one talks about the fact that it's in a bucket or in a cup or in something [11:01.440 --> 11:06.040] because the framework gives the structure to the water. [11:06.040 --> 11:09.560] But you don't talk about whether the water is going to be bucket. [11:09.560 --> 11:11.280] A bucket to the water. [11:11.280 --> 11:12.280] Yeah. [11:12.280 --> 11:13.480] Does that make sense? [11:13.480 --> 11:16.200] We are not, OK. [11:16.200 --> 11:22.040] I'm French in Spanish, so it's possibly grammatically not the right approach [11:22.040 --> 11:23.680] to the topic in English. [11:23.680 --> 11:27.240] OK, that's what I'm going to do for the discussion, right? [11:27.240 --> 11:32.800] At least I think that we set the stage for the conversation, yeah? [11:32.800 --> 11:36.720] I think it's an accurate term, but I think there's a missing word at the end of it. [11:36.720 --> 11:39.640] It should be European open source industry. [11:39.640 --> 11:40.640] Yeah? [11:40.640 --> 11:42.960] Because for me it seems like it's very standard. [11:42.960 --> 11:50.840] So the comment is that it should be European open source industry. [11:50.840 --> 11:57.320] Yeah, and that's another aspect that I like about it. [11:57.320 --> 12:03.080] Yeah, because for me I think it's the only concern I've heard, like why this matters, [12:03.080 --> 12:12.200] like it's the one about competition, so competition with US and other global companies. [12:12.200 --> 12:17.240] And that is predominantly sort of like an industry concern. [12:17.240 --> 12:21.720] I think, for example, like there might be other concerns around sort of like governance [12:21.720 --> 12:25.600] of open source projects like that are based in Europe or have predominantly sort of like [12:25.600 --> 12:28.440] European contributors and things like that. [12:28.440 --> 12:34.240] But from my experience working with those projects, none of them have sort of, and at [12:34.240 --> 12:38.880] least intentionally sort of like isolationist sort of like tendencies, they might be isolated [12:38.880 --> 12:41.400] just by fact of like who they know or who they don't know. [12:41.400 --> 12:43.840] That's the diversity of something like that. [12:43.840 --> 12:48.120] There's not, yeah, yeah, but there's not, it's less about lack of outreach rather than [12:48.120 --> 12:49.120] we want to be isolated. [12:49.120 --> 12:55.520] I think most of these projects would rather be not seen as European, but rather as part [12:55.520 --> 12:58.640] of more open source movement. [12:58.640 --> 13:02.480] Do you want to react? [13:02.480 --> 13:07.280] So if we could please just have the speakers call on anyone who wants to speak, we'll bring [13:07.280 --> 13:12.920] the mic to you, and then you have to speak really loudly into the mic, but please call [13:12.920 --> 13:19.360] on people and let us know, we'll bring the mic to them. [13:19.360 --> 13:23.880] So my take on that is that, yes, there is something that we could define as European [13:23.880 --> 13:25.800] open source industry. [13:25.800 --> 13:30.280] I think there's also something we could call the European open source technology. [13:30.280 --> 13:36.000] And from my perspective, that is open source technology whose roadmap and whose governance [13:36.000 --> 13:40.360] is controlled by European organizations, yes. [13:40.360 --> 13:49.120] It doesn't mean external or non-EU actors cannot or contributors cannot join that community [13:49.120 --> 13:50.320] or contribute to that technology. [13:50.320 --> 13:56.600] But the roadmap, the vision of that technology, the values, if you want to talk about that, [13:56.600 --> 14:00.800] the governance for this that control those technologies are under European hands. [14:00.800 --> 14:11.680] Sorry, before, I have slightly different opinion, and my opinion is here on the question seven. [14:11.680 --> 14:19.280] I think that definitely one of the advantages of open source is that we move the needle [14:19.280 --> 14:29.080] from having access to proprietary IP to having the skills to study, to understand, to master, [14:29.080 --> 14:33.520] to evolve, to develop the open source software. [14:33.520 --> 14:39.720] And I think that what we need to do, what's the next step? [14:39.720 --> 14:47.680] So you represent a relatively small company, and I think that we have a vibrant ecosystem [14:47.680 --> 14:52.160] of small open source companies in Europe. [14:52.160 --> 15:05.000] And I think that what we need to do to go to the next step in terms of European power [15:05.000 --> 15:15.040] in open source, technology impact in open source is to involve the larger companies. [15:15.040 --> 15:19.720] And in Europe, we have a characteristic which is that the larger companies are not software [15:19.720 --> 15:20.720] companies. [15:20.720 --> 15:29.480] They are automotive companies, they are aircraft companies, they are utilities, et cetera. [15:29.480 --> 15:37.840] So we have a lot that is being done in terms of policies in engaging the government. [15:37.840 --> 15:41.400] So we have a governmental support, et cetera. [15:41.400 --> 15:49.680] And I think that if we really want to get more leadership from Europe in this topic [15:49.680 --> 15:57.840] of global open source, that's really when we manage to involve the big companies. [15:57.840 --> 16:07.560] So we work, for example, with automotive companies, mostly Germans, but we have a Volkswagen, [16:07.560 --> 16:13.000] Mercedes, Bosch, Continental, ZF, et cetera. [16:13.000 --> 16:16.480] So that's companies that it's very interesting. [16:16.480 --> 16:24.080] Some of them have been doing software for a very long time, embedded software, et cetera. [16:24.080 --> 16:31.640] And they are slowly getting to use open source to collaborate together. [16:31.640 --> 16:38.360] And I think that's really fundamental because they are likely about to create software that [16:38.360 --> 16:45.600] would be game changing for them, but also for the rest of the industry. [16:45.600 --> 16:54.760] So I think that there is a happy battle which is, okay, what can we do with open source? [16:54.760 --> 17:01.840] And on the other side, you have the big, the GAFAM and big software vendors. [17:01.840 --> 17:05.880] We don't have this big software industry in Europe. [17:05.880 --> 17:15.160] But open source is really a tactical and potentially a strategic tool that can be used by all our [17:15.160 --> 17:16.160] industry. [17:16.160 --> 17:24.160] And one of the problems is that in this industry, all the managers, they have no clue about [17:24.160 --> 17:25.160] software. [17:25.160 --> 17:30.480] They have no clue about open source, even less. [17:30.480 --> 17:36.200] And so they think that they hear about open source like, oh, it's open, it's cool, et cetera. [17:36.200 --> 17:44.720] And I think that collectively, we need to propagate the message that, well, doing open [17:44.720 --> 17:48.560] source is, you know, you need to take care about your community. [17:48.560 --> 17:49.720] You need to take care. [17:49.720 --> 17:51.760] You need to have a governance. [17:51.760 --> 17:55.520] You need to have rules of code of conduct, et cetera. [17:55.520 --> 18:01.840] And so that's really something where that may be counterintuitive for them when you talk [18:01.840 --> 18:06.040] to, I don't know, the CEO of an automotive company, that may be counterintuitive for [18:06.040 --> 18:09.360] them that open source can be good for them. [18:09.360 --> 18:18.760] But I think that when they engage with open source, that will also be good for you. [18:18.760 --> 18:24.640] Because they need you, and that will really grow how we collaborate in open source. [18:24.640 --> 18:30.640] Because for the moment, and that's the reaction and what creates the fact that people want [18:30.640 --> 18:36.640] to talk about European open source, that's exactly what you describe in ways of governance. [18:36.640 --> 18:43.240] And for the moment, I can understand the frustration of some European actors, not the system integrators, [18:43.240 --> 18:47.040] because system integrators, they take the technologies, they create a solution with [18:47.040 --> 18:52.680] this technology, and wherever the technology comes from, they are happy. [18:52.680 --> 19:00.040] But for everybody else, to some extent, the fact that they have those open source technologies [19:00.040 --> 19:09.440] coming from mostly the U.S. is, okay, so what is our impact on it? [19:09.440 --> 19:10.440] Sorry. [19:10.440 --> 19:17.520] Go ahead, please, if you want to move away from IP, please do not refer to it as European [19:17.520 --> 19:22.840] open source, but put another word on it, like European open source initiative, framework, [19:22.840 --> 19:28.880] community, something that refers to all the aspects aside from the software code. [19:28.880 --> 19:31.840] Because when you're talking about European open source, you think about the code, the [19:31.840 --> 19:33.960] IP, and all this stuff. [19:33.960 --> 19:39.320] With that, please use a framework or something, so that you describe the whole approach. [19:39.320 --> 19:47.520] But my interest is leadership, and my mind is more leadership, maybe, so we put it somewhere [19:47.520 --> 19:48.520] and describe it. [19:48.520 --> 19:57.680] Yeah, so when you skip away from IP and from non-Europeans using open source software, [19:57.680 --> 20:03.880] and you can frame it in a better way, so please refer to it to like an initiative or framework [20:03.880 --> 20:12.400] or something that you can put multiple approaches to it, but please make a big, please, please [20:12.400 --> 20:13.400] do. [20:13.400 --> 20:23.080] Okay, just quickly, I have one here, then I saw this one next, then there was one up [20:23.080 --> 20:34.320] there, then this one, and then here, so I will try my best. [20:34.320 --> 20:38.320] Okay, so this might not only work without the mask. [20:38.320 --> 20:41.000] One short question about the European open source debate. [20:41.000 --> 20:45.880] Have you ever considered not to try to frame it as a kind of license, because we have seen [20:45.880 --> 20:52.280] from the development of the approach of the German car makers to make a German car operating [20:52.280 --> 20:57.920] system that they paid horribly amounts of pain when they forked off certain line exports [20:57.920 --> 21:03.760] and spent a triple digit amount of millions on something that they then had to scroll [21:03.760 --> 21:11.800] back, thus it might be more useful to go to open source and give them some kind of label [21:11.800 --> 21:17.600] as we are a company and we maintain it and then eat the liability that comes with using [21:17.600 --> 21:22.800] open source and can be contracted given that the Cyber Resilience Act implies companies [21:22.800 --> 21:27.080] in Europe to actually take the liabilities that come from using open source, so instead [21:27.080 --> 21:35.040] of making it a license thing, you basically go to a certain software stack that you maintain [21:35.040 --> 21:39.880] that you can still freely integrate developments from all over the world and then you basically [21:39.880 --> 21:47.680] put a stamp on it, like if you want to use it, you can contact us and pay us a service [21:47.680 --> 21:53.840] level agreement to do the maintenance for that and then we will also take the liability [21:53.840 --> 21:59.400] with regards to the liability that will come with the Cyber Resilience Act where companies [21:59.400 --> 22:04.080] have to accept the risk that come from open source and an IT security aspect. [22:04.080 --> 22:09.920] Would that be a different spin to actually fostering a money flow into European open [22:09.920 --> 22:16.280] source companies and actually create a business model? [22:16.280 --> 22:31.200] I don't know, but we could try, just a clarification, I mean just put something that is going to [22:31.200 --> 22:37.760] be a real question that we will have to answer in Europe in a few months time I would say. [22:37.760 --> 22:45.400] So let's say we in Europe decide that we want to develop a specific piece of technology [22:45.400 --> 22:49.000] that we think is crucial for Europe. [22:49.000 --> 22:53.440] We want that piece of technology to be open source, it's going to be funded with European [22:53.440 --> 23:01.520] fundings and all this, we managed to get the European industry on board, not just as a [23:01.520 --> 23:05.640] consumers, passive consumers of open source but as active maintainers and developers [23:05.640 --> 23:12.400] of open source around this technology and we want this technology in the long term to [23:12.400 --> 23:19.800] respond to European, to the priorities of the European Union in terms of the industry [23:19.800 --> 23:24.720] and the geo-strategic priorities of the continent. [23:24.720 --> 23:33.400] We want that technology to respond to that, how can we protect that from let's say a [23:33.400 --> 23:38.680] hyperscaler contributing with a thousand developers to that project and kind of taking over the [23:38.680 --> 23:45.760] governance structures of that project, how can we from that scenario protect that open [23:45.760 --> 23:53.600] source technology as I define that, is that a way we can do that without excluding non-European [23:53.600 --> 23:56.000] companies from the governance bodies. [23:56.000 --> 24:00.880] I'm asking, because that's going to be a question that we are going to have to respond [24:00.880 --> 24:04.840] in a few weeks time, sorry in a few months time with thinking of a specific piece of [24:04.840 --> 24:08.800] technology that will be developing in Europe by the end of this year, it's probably going [24:08.800 --> 24:11.800] to be the largest open source project in Europe. [24:11.800 --> 24:25.040] So here's next and then there was one over there, another over there, then over here [24:25.040 --> 24:27.400] and then over there. [24:27.400 --> 24:33.200] So yeah, real quick question maybe hopefully, I find it very difficult to discuss these [24:33.200 --> 24:35.000] topics in abstract terms. [24:35.000 --> 24:40.280] So I wonder do you have concrete examples where kind of important open source projects, [24:40.280 --> 24:45.960] where project management, the governance exercise or the development happened against [24:45.960 --> 24:52.440] interests of European consumers, contributors and if you have such concrete cases, do you [24:52.440 --> 24:57.920] know whether this is because the Europeans didn't get involved or because the decision [24:57.920 --> 25:00.920] was really done against them though they were engaged. [25:00.920 --> 25:14.280] Well in terms of open source projects that are large in control let's say by non-EU [25:14.280 --> 25:20.160] companies or vendors, there are a number of examples there, you want me to give you some [25:20.160 --> 25:21.160] names? [25:21.160 --> 25:25.160] Not exactly for the projects, that I can understand, but where the decisions, project [25:25.160 --> 25:30.440] management happened against European interests and not that many open source projects are [25:30.440 --> 25:37.800] of course led by U.S. companies and organizations and so forth, but I'm explicitly asking for [25:37.800 --> 25:44.080] controversial decisions project management governance because it's more concrete. [25:44.080 --> 25:49.840] So he's asking me for specific examples in which European companies have been sidelined [25:49.840 --> 25:57.920] by in some decisions in open source projects, I don't know, it doesn't matter. [25:57.920 --> 26:01.640] It's about the risk, it's risk management. [26:01.640 --> 26:08.000] So how we prevent things from happening, how we prevent vendors from dropping their support [26:08.000 --> 26:14.640] to an open source project overnight and collapsing the sustainability of that project because [26:14.640 --> 26:20.000] in Europe we have relied for so long on non-European companies to develop these technologies and [26:20.000 --> 26:27.080] maintain them that we've lost the skills and the capabilities to take over. [26:27.080 --> 26:28.080] That's the problem. [26:28.080 --> 26:30.680] When we're talking about thousands of millions of euros invested in technology, I'll give [26:30.680 --> 26:31.680] you an example of that. [26:31.680 --> 26:35.520] There's something called the important project of common European interest and next generation [26:35.520 --> 26:39.240] cloud infrastructure and services, Ipsi-THIS. [26:39.240 --> 26:44.360] That's mobilizing thousands of millions from European funding to create a whole alternative [26:44.360 --> 26:49.240] stack of technologies for managing the cloud and the edge in Europe. [26:49.240 --> 26:53.840] That's only for European companies and that is going to produce I think in my opinion [26:53.840 --> 26:58.680] the largest ever open source project in Europe. [26:58.680 --> 27:05.800] How we protect that, if we open it up to Google, AWS, Microsoft, the companies for whom this [27:05.800 --> 27:09.960] technology is being designed to neutralize their dominance in the market and prevent [27:09.960 --> 27:15.000] them from taking over the edge computing market as well. [27:15.000 --> 27:16.640] That's a practical problem. [27:16.640 --> 27:27.360] That's a topic on which we will likely disagree, but that's fine, that's why we have a conversation. [27:27.360 --> 27:34.840] Because from my perspective, I think that if you talk about Ipsi, if you talk about edge [27:34.840 --> 27:45.680] computing projects, I think that so there are effectively millions of euros that are [27:45.680 --> 27:55.920] spent on helping European companies and that means companies with eight quarters in Europe [27:55.920 --> 28:02.840] because I remember I was in such a project and one of the comments we had when it was [28:02.840 --> 28:12.320] rejected is that you cannot get this specific funding because some partners are not European. [28:12.320 --> 28:19.760] So that's not a team with, you know, that's not just a company with a subsidiary in Europe, [28:19.760 --> 28:20.760] etc. [28:20.760 --> 28:21.760] That's really it. [28:21.760 --> 28:25.560] So we have the funding mechanism. [28:25.560 --> 28:27.320] That's already in place. [28:27.320 --> 28:35.000] And so next, the question is not how do we restrict some of the funding to help European [28:35.000 --> 28:36.000] companies? [28:36.000 --> 28:43.800] The question is how do we make it effective because, and I think that we have a fundamental [28:43.800 --> 28:51.880] problem in Europe about that, is that we spend lots of money and at some point in research [28:51.880 --> 28:56.920] projects, I don't know if you have been involved in those research projects, but in research [28:56.920 --> 29:02.040] or innovation projects, we tell people, hey, you need to do open source. [29:02.040 --> 29:08.040] And some of them, and I would say 80% of them maybe understand that they just need to publish [29:08.040 --> 29:17.160] a bandonware on GitHub to check the green box and they think, hey, come on, we published [29:17.160 --> 29:18.520] in open source and we don't. [29:18.520 --> 29:25.680] So I think that we also have to do all parts and to understand that, yes, when you do open [29:25.680 --> 29:31.960] source, you need to build a community, you need to build a governance, you need to, and [29:31.960 --> 29:41.960] even, I imagine, I dream maybe that a group of European companies, because they identify [29:41.960 --> 29:49.840] that a project that has been created somewhere else is very important for them, takes over, [29:49.840 --> 29:58.080] ends enough developers in a meritocratic environment to take over the governance of the project [29:58.080 --> 30:00.840] and to have more, more committers, et cetera. [30:00.840 --> 30:08.000] So I think, you know, there is, I know in most countries, in most continents, we have [30:08.000 --> 30:17.320] a, we can see some protectionist approach and I don't like it, and my organization doesn't [30:17.320 --> 30:25.800] like it either, but I think that it's really exactly, we should exactly do the opposite, [30:25.800 --> 30:33.600] that we have the framework to, we have the framework to fund some developments. [30:33.600 --> 30:39.720] We have the incentive or we have the requirement to make the development open source. [30:39.720 --> 30:49.760] The problem is that at some point, it is lost in some of, you know, fine-grained open source [30:49.760 --> 30:53.080] initiatives that never reach a critical mass. [30:53.080 --> 30:57.480] So of course, when I say that, I have an interest, is that, okay, at the Equip Foundation, we [30:57.480 --> 31:01.080] can help people group together to reach such a critical mass. [31:01.080 --> 31:06.840] But I mean it, I mean that there are plenty of open source foundations, there is the Apache [31:06.840 --> 31:07.840] Foundation. [31:07.840 --> 31:15.000] We are here in Europe, and we are incorporated in Europe, post-it code in Europe. [31:15.000 --> 31:22.960] And I want to see a more critical mass of people who, and companies who group together [31:22.960 --> 31:32.800] and have the ambition not to be reactive, but to really, well, just create the next technology [31:32.800 --> 31:34.960] for edge computing, for example. [31:34.960 --> 31:38.680] And the next technology for edge computing, that will be open source. [31:38.680 --> 31:44.720] Whether it's started bootstrap in Europe, or it's bootstrap in the US, or it's bootstrap [31:44.720 --> 31:50.520] in China, everybody at some point will converge to a few of those technologies. [31:50.520 --> 31:57.760] So we have, you see, we have a, we need to do better when we do open source, and I don't [31:57.760 --> 31:59.760] say that for you. [31:59.760 --> 32:03.640] No, I agree, I mean, there's no discussion about that. [32:03.640 --> 32:09.160] So I can tell you, the next big tool for edge cloud in Europe is going to be open source. [32:09.160 --> 32:10.440] So, and that's it. [32:10.440 --> 32:14.840] And that involves the main industrial actors in the continent. [32:14.840 --> 32:17.040] So that's a fact. [32:17.040 --> 32:21.280] We only have, it has to be approved by DJ competition and all that, but that's minor details. [32:21.280 --> 32:26.480] But if that happens and goes well, we'll have a five year project, five year long project [32:26.480 --> 32:30.120] developing some first class open source in Europe. [32:30.120 --> 32:35.240] And I agree with you, we have to mobilize, I mean, the whole community beyond the small [32:35.240 --> 32:41.600] technology providers, and we have to invest those fundings better and more strategically [32:41.600 --> 32:42.600] as well. [32:42.600 --> 32:47.760] So as a company, for instance, I would love if European projects hadn't been horizon [32:47.760 --> 32:53.760] Europe or research or innovation projects, hadn't been spending this money in small pieces [32:53.760 --> 32:58.600] of software to contribute to OpenStack, for instance, which is our competitor, and not [32:58.600 --> 33:02.040] to OpenNevla or some other European providers. [33:02.040 --> 33:06.240] So the last, one of the most striking things of the thing, the work we've been doing in [33:06.240 --> 33:12.840] a couple of years is bringing the main European open source providers into the European research [33:12.840 --> 33:15.680] and innovation ecosystem because they weren't there. [33:15.680 --> 33:21.400] People like Susie, like MariaDB, Lindit, I mean, these people have never, ever, ever considered [33:21.400 --> 33:25.600] even accessing, trying to get this funding or contributing to research and innovation [33:25.600 --> 33:26.600] projects in Europe. [33:26.600 --> 33:32.640] On the other hand, we find most of the US open source vendors, but also cloud providers, [33:32.640 --> 33:34.840] very well positioned in that area. [33:34.840 --> 33:40.520] So that's something we also have to work on, to mobilize all these resources to actually [33:40.520 --> 33:43.640] help European open source companies being most sustainable in their own time and get [33:43.640 --> 33:47.600] these contributions more fluently. [33:47.600 --> 33:52.920] So we have a question over here, afterwards, I registered a question here, then one over [33:52.920 --> 33:58.440] there, then I saw one over here, and I saw one at the front. [33:58.440 --> 34:05.880] One request, if you want to ask a question, please put your hand up and then try to get [34:05.880 --> 34:09.240] eye contact with me, then I can acknowledge that I saw you. [34:09.240 --> 34:13.800] It's else a little bit difficult in this large room, so, handing over. [34:13.800 --> 34:20.840] So what I think is that, like, back to maybe this definition part, where we have a European [34:20.840 --> 34:26.920] open source, I feel like the open source part of that is very much, very much global. [34:26.920 --> 34:35.000] So there's no, it shouldn't be localized, or it shouldn't be local to any area, really. [34:35.000 --> 34:42.000] And what, then we have in Europe, what we should maybe improve on is the, like, those [34:42.000 --> 34:47.720] two aspects, the using open source software and the creating open source software. [34:47.720 --> 34:52.360] And I can't exactly speak for those major projects, which are, like, funded by huge [34:52.360 --> 34:57.720] companies, either, well, in Europe or mostly in the US right now. [34:57.720 --> 35:03.480] But what I see is just a lot of individual projects from individual people who just contribute [35:03.480 --> 35:12.840] to open source, perhaps even their free time, or at a small company or whatever, and, right, [35:12.840 --> 35:17.960] but they still are, they are still the backbone of maybe an entire industry without that industry [35:17.960 --> 35:20.400] even realizing. [35:20.400 --> 35:28.320] So I feel like this is where we, as maybe the European Union, or as Europe in general, [35:28.320 --> 35:35.920] could dramatically improve on, is just to focus on those essential projects. [35:35.920 --> 35:47.680] I mean, there's this, I forgot the name, a German fund for exactly those projects, kind [35:47.680 --> 35:53.360] of project, like the base project, kind of small, but still really important, and, hmm? [35:53.360 --> 35:58.000] Yeah, exactly, right. [35:58.000 --> 36:03.920] So I would love to see more of these kind of initiatives. [36:03.920 --> 36:13.080] And I think that's really important, not, I mean, I don't know if, like, those governance [36:13.080 --> 36:16.600] aspects of open source are even that important. [36:16.600 --> 36:21.880] I see it if we are actually the main consumer of something, or we have specific goals we [36:21.880 --> 36:33.760] want to realize in open source, as Europe, but just, I feel like just empowering those [36:33.760 --> 36:39.880] individuals, or companies, or anyone who's contributing to important open source projects [36:39.880 --> 36:48.720] regardless of if they are, have a government's role or not, is really beneficial. [36:48.720 --> 36:50.720] Yeah. [36:50.720 --> 36:56.160] Well, I like the topic of empowering people. [36:56.160 --> 37:05.360] I think that when we, so when we fund, when we fund open source, we have a, the topic [37:05.360 --> 37:15.960] is that sometimes maybe we don't have enough money going down to the developers. [37:15.960 --> 37:23.280] Because you know, in some of the, in some of the places where I hear a lot about open [37:23.280 --> 37:30.360] source, open source, open source, open source, open source, sometimes I hardly find the developers. [37:30.360 --> 37:37.200] And that's, so that's, we have the problem on the two sides of the spectrum. [37:37.200 --> 37:45.320] I mean, we have, on the policy aspect, we have policy people who are talking about open [37:45.320 --> 37:53.160] source, and that's fine, I think that we need to, to potentially do better to, to characterize [37:53.160 --> 37:59.200] what we mean by open source and to make it better consumable by, by the policy people. [37:59.200 --> 38:07.560] And on the other side, we have also, I think the, the romantic view of open source being [38:07.560 --> 38:12.240] done by individuals, like what you described. [38:12.240 --> 38:18.240] I think that we have, especially here at FOSDEM, okay, we have all the individuals coming for [38:18.240 --> 38:24.120] the weekend, et cetera, all the volunteers, but I think that even in, in the room, we [38:24.120 --> 38:30.600] have also lots of people who are doing open source for their, as their day job. [38:30.600 --> 38:35.160] So that's, I think that I understand the individual aspect. [38:35.160 --> 38:42.600] I think that there are also lots of projects that are not really supported by individuals, [38:42.600 --> 38:48.040] but by some kind of organizations that requires those, those projects. [38:48.040 --> 38:55.000] And I think that after HubBleed and LookForShell, et cetera, I think that to some extent, the [38:55.000 --> 39:03.560] industry is embracing the topic and trying to, how do you call it? [39:03.560 --> 39:11.320] Do, do better and potentially, hire those individuals on contractual basis, et cetera, [39:11.320 --> 39:13.320] to take care of it. [39:13.320 --> 39:14.320] So. [39:14.320 --> 39:15.320] Yeah. [39:15.320 --> 39:23.840] I mean, that's something, you know, any of you attended the Open Forum Europe summit [39:23.840 --> 39:29.640] yesterday, but there was an interesting, if you can go recommend, if you look at the, [39:29.640 --> 39:35.640] the talk by the, it was the CEO of Github, right, it's very interesting. [39:35.640 --> 39:45.000] He was arguing about the AI Act and how open source would be left outside the scope of [39:45.000 --> 39:50.240] the AI Act because of the nature of the open source being run mainly by, by individuals [39:50.240 --> 39:56.280] and then the contrast is when you go to argue against the Cyber Resilience Act, then the [39:56.280 --> 39:57.280] argument changes. [39:57.280 --> 40:03.160] Look, I mean, we are companies, every open source is at some point commercial, so, so [40:03.160 --> 40:09.760] I think we have to, again, discuss within, especially in Europe as well, the, I mean, [40:09.760 --> 40:14.440] how we, we explain what we do, how we explain what the community is, and it changes from [40:14.440 --> 40:17.360] different parts of the, I mean, if you look at the technology stack and different projects, [40:17.360 --> 40:20.680] I mean, some projects are run by volunteers, some, some projects are run entirely by the [40:20.680 --> 40:23.800] communities, I mean, all projects are run by companies alone. [40:23.800 --> 40:25.240] I mean, our project, we write alone. [40:25.240 --> 40:28.880] I mean, we control the roadmap, we control the releases, and you can, you're free to [40:28.880 --> 40:32.400] contribute with the site, we accept that or not, and that's it. [40:32.400 --> 40:36.880] Other projects, they have a different governance, it's a community of companies, and they somehow [40:36.880 --> 40:41.360] benefit from that shirt, and that's, that, that shirt knowledge, and that's perfectly [40:41.360 --> 40:42.360] fine. [40:42.360 --> 40:45.480] They collaboration among competitive, and competitors, and that's perfectly okay. [40:45.480 --> 40:50.040] I mean, there are different models, and they are, I think they are all okay, but each of [40:50.040 --> 40:56.320] them have their own particularities, so this, this concept of sovereignty in Europe, I think [40:56.320 --> 41:01.080] especially relevant for those projects in which they are, they are mainly maintained [41:01.080 --> 41:07.280] and controlled by, by, by companies, by open source companies, or other companies, so that's, [41:07.280 --> 41:12.320] that's, just to frame a bit the, this, this, the discussion, I mean, from my perspective, [41:12.320 --> 41:17.360] so those are the kind of projects that, for me personally, and for all this, create some [41:17.360 --> 41:21.800] concern in terms of, if we develop these projects in Europe, and we have this ambition of having [41:21.800 --> 41:25.800] the European industry heavily involved in maintaining these projects, how we protect [41:25.800 --> 41:31.600] these technologies and these communities from, from the very best, I mean, the very same companies [41:31.600 --> 41:42.880] we are creating this technology, not against, but, you understand me, right? [41:42.880 --> 41:48.200] I would like to come back to the European project, and I think it's really important, [41:48.200 --> 41:55.640] we want to be democratic, it means freedom, and seeing what, what's happening right now [41:55.640 --> 42:02.560] in the world, it's like woohoo, so democracy and sustainability, I think it's part of the [42:02.560 --> 42:10.240] European project, and so how can we be leaders in, and I prefer free software, because free [42:10.240 --> 42:14.520] is in freedom, not as in free beer. [42:14.520 --> 42:20.760] How can we use that for interoperability that leads to right to repair and, and that helps [42:20.760 --> 42:23.000] sustainability in the long run? [42:23.000 --> 42:31.800] So how can we put open source European software to help build the European way of doing stuff, [42:31.800 --> 42:37.200] if I can say it like that, and I think that the adversary of, of European open source [42:37.200 --> 42:45.440] software is international close software, more than international open source software, [42:45.440 --> 42:53.080] I don't know, I mean, when I see that all the better universities are sold to, to Microsoft, [42:53.080 --> 43:03.400] we have a problem, like, and how can we change that using European companies that are using [43:03.400 --> 43:07.840] open source software? [43:07.840 --> 43:12.720] Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the, that's, those are a couple of big questions, yeah. [43:12.720 --> 43:23.360] I mean, the, I think, as we see this debate taking place, I think, at certain, at some [43:23.360 --> 43:30.000] parts of the technological world, let's say, part of this, this stack, we are happily beyond [43:30.000 --> 43:33.620] the debate between open source or proprietary source. [43:33.620 --> 43:38.000] I mean, that's, and that's something in, I understand in some other areas, it's not [43:38.000 --> 43:44.400] that, that, that clear, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a vaguely sale, I mean, you have [43:44.400 --> 43:50.440] to fight a lot with, with users and other companies to trust open source. [43:50.440 --> 43:55.560] In some parts, in some, in some areas, that's, I think we are, we are beyond that. [43:55.560 --> 44:00.120] So I'll tell you a very small anecdote. [44:00.120 --> 44:03.320] We have the General Assembly of the industrial, [44:03.320 --> 44:04.160] what's the name? [44:05.240 --> 44:07.560] European Alliance for Industrial Data and Cloud [44:07.560 --> 44:09.000] in December, for instance. [44:10.360 --> 44:12.800] It's only for, it's a body of, [44:12.800 --> 44:14.600] it's an alliance, industrial alliance [44:14.600 --> 44:17.480] set by the commission or supported by the commission [44:17.480 --> 44:20.960] led by the industry, only for European companies, okay? [44:20.960 --> 44:23.840] We are defining the roadmap, the technological roadmap [44:23.840 --> 44:27.720] for the cloud and the, and it's a bit of a promotion [44:27.720 --> 44:30.480] to have another talk at five in the Sovereign Cloud [44:30.480 --> 44:33.080] that from about the specifics of this initiative. [44:33.080 --> 44:35.560] So we are defining the technological priorities [44:35.560 --> 44:38.000] that we need the commission to help us co-fund [44:38.000 --> 44:41.520] in the next years around it's cloud and data. [44:42.480 --> 44:43.320] Only for Europeans. [44:43.320 --> 44:47.000] And when we have this General Assembly here in Brussels [44:47.000 --> 44:50.320] in December, there are three working groups, [44:50.320 --> 44:51.600] the cloud and its working group, [44:51.600 --> 44:53.040] the one for member states, [44:53.040 --> 44:55.840] members from different governments. [44:55.840 --> 44:57.640] And there's a specific working group [44:57.640 --> 45:02.080] for the fence and aeronaptic sector. [45:02.080 --> 45:06.040] And for me personally, I'm old enough to have seen [45:06.040 --> 45:07.320] some changes in the sector. [45:08.280 --> 45:12.800] For me, watching at this five representatives across Europe [45:12.800 --> 45:17.800] from the main defense companies saying they understand, [45:17.800 --> 45:20.360] I mean, they want to use open source. [45:20.360 --> 45:22.760] They do want to use open source. [45:22.760 --> 45:25.840] They just need help to use open source. [45:25.840 --> 45:29.840] But they want, that was surprising for me. [45:29.840 --> 45:33.200] Okay, it's the defense and sector, okay? [45:33.200 --> 45:35.000] But you know, I mean, this is people [45:35.000 --> 45:37.880] with a very specific mindset and very critical projects [45:37.880 --> 45:40.560] and very hard requirements on the contracts they get [45:40.560 --> 45:41.400] and all that stuff. [45:41.400 --> 45:44.280] They were saying, we want to use open source. [45:44.280 --> 45:47.960] We just need to see how to actually put it under the requirements [45:47.960 --> 45:51.400] we have in the sector, because that's what we want to do. [45:51.400 --> 45:54.160] And they want to contribute to these projects. [45:54.160 --> 45:56.720] We just need to tell them how exactly, [45:56.720 --> 45:58.800] with their peculiarities and their particularities. [45:58.800 --> 46:02.360] But in some areas, we're happily beyond that discussion. [46:02.360 --> 46:05.960] And we are, I think, mature, I mean, the market in that area, [46:05.960 --> 46:09.080] so the sector is mature enough to get into the nuances [46:09.080 --> 46:11.240] of what do we want to do. [46:11.240 --> 46:15.280] Into the nuances of what do we mean by open source? [46:15.280 --> 46:17.000] Who's controlling these open source? [46:17.000 --> 46:18.400] Who's developing these? [46:18.400 --> 46:21.080] What are the risks of taking, assuming, [46:21.080 --> 46:23.400] or using this technology or that other technology? [46:24.400 --> 46:26.560] I mean, obviously, I have to confess, [46:26.560 --> 46:29.800] that's a debate as a small open source European company. [46:29.800 --> 46:31.720] This is an environment that benefits [46:31.720 --> 46:34.080] the small company like us and others, [46:34.080 --> 46:37.520] because it helps us differentiate from others. [46:38.380 --> 46:39.220] But that's what it is. [46:39.220 --> 46:41.000] I mean, we have the European open source sector, [46:41.000 --> 46:41.840] you know what it is. [46:41.840 --> 46:44.640] I mean, we have a few larger companies, [46:44.640 --> 46:45.720] but most of us are smaller. [46:45.720 --> 46:47.680] We've been having for years, [46:47.680 --> 46:50.040] producing very good technologies, I think. [46:50.040 --> 46:52.080] But that's what it is, so yeah. [46:52.080 --> 46:53.240] Here's the question. [46:53.240 --> 46:55.240] So we have one last question here. [46:55.240 --> 46:57.840] I saw many others registered this, [46:57.840 --> 47:00.960] but we can't take any further questions after this one. [47:00.960 --> 47:04.800] So I'm very sorry about those who gave their sign to me, [47:04.800 --> 47:06.480] and we can't take your question. [47:07.640 --> 47:08.840] Yeah, thank you. [47:08.840 --> 47:11.080] It's not so much a question anymore, given the time, [47:11.080 --> 47:13.920] but I think, given what's on the slide right now, [47:13.920 --> 47:14.960] is European open source? [47:14.960 --> 47:18.120] I think you talk a lot about governance of it. [47:18.120 --> 47:21.520] I think it's about dependence on external actors, [47:21.520 --> 47:22.560] which are not a Europe. [47:22.560 --> 47:26.200] I think we want to be self sovereign, [47:26.200 --> 47:29.040] so as it's now the hype. [47:29.040 --> 47:32.440] But I think we should have expertise in it. [47:32.440 --> 47:35.320] It doesn't necessarily need to be European development. [47:35.320 --> 47:37.360] You need European expertise to judge it, [47:37.360 --> 47:40.040] and to, if somebody decides to stop that, [47:40.040 --> 47:40.880] we can take over. [47:40.880 --> 47:43.320] It's not so much that we created in the first place, [47:43.320 --> 47:45.200] but we need to build the expertise, [47:45.200 --> 47:47.920] not only in development, but also in knowledge [47:47.920 --> 47:49.440] about using it, promoting it. [47:49.440 --> 47:52.840] I think that's one of the things we just lack education in. [47:52.840 --> 47:55.200] We're only forging a project between it and maintaining it. [47:55.200 --> 47:56.040] Exactly. [47:56.040 --> 47:58.920] We need more education on both development [47:58.920 --> 48:01.080] and promotion of open source and using it. [48:01.080 --> 48:01.960] I think that's the thing. [48:01.960 --> 48:04.000] We need European education on this. [48:04.000 --> 48:06.360] Yeah, I think we agree on that. [48:06.360 --> 48:10.960] And in all honesty, when I put that sentence, [48:10.960 --> 48:14.680] and again, I'm French, that may be incorrect English. [48:14.680 --> 48:21.880] But my goal was to bring us to quickly conclude [48:21.880 --> 48:23.880] that the short answer is no. [48:23.880 --> 48:33.800] But I think that we must have a European industrial strategy [48:33.800 --> 48:34.920] for open source. [48:34.920 --> 48:38.720] And I think that we at least can agree on that. [48:38.720 --> 48:44.520] And we have lots of talks about open source [48:44.520 --> 48:46.280] in the European setup. [48:46.280 --> 48:51.880] And it was mentioned in one of the questions with the CRE. [48:51.880 --> 48:58.280] And I think that, OK, on one side, for me, [48:58.280 --> 49:03.680] that's really interesting to see that the cyber [49:03.680 --> 49:08.560] resilience act mentions open source as an exception. [49:08.560 --> 49:12.000] But the way it mentions open source as an exception [49:12.000 --> 49:17.080] is something that is almost not acceptable for lots of people [49:17.080 --> 49:19.760] in open source because that creates lots of concerns. [49:19.760 --> 49:26.160] And so on one side, we have incentives, lots of incentives [49:26.160 --> 49:27.800] to do more open source in Europe. [49:27.800 --> 49:31.840] And on the other side, we are creating regulations [49:31.840 --> 49:36.920] that could break the way to redistribute software. [49:36.920 --> 49:40.320] So that would really be a problem. [49:40.320 --> 49:41.840] And that was my conclusion. [49:41.840 --> 49:44.400] So your conclusion, and we are done. [49:44.400 --> 49:46.400] My conclusion is that the time's up. [49:46.400 --> 50:02.400] Thank you, everyone.