[00:00.000 --> 00:12.800] Good afternoon. Are you ready? Martin, how many times did I tell you not to sedate the [00:12.800 --> 00:17.400] audience when we give a presentation? I think this was a marketing ploy, wasn't it? [00:17.400 --> 00:24.640] Let's try this again. Are you ready? Much better. Welcome to our presentation on Linux [00:24.640 --> 00:28.360] in loss. This is us. More like a talk than a presentation because [00:28.360 --> 00:36.760] there's only one slide. This is us. Yeah, so if you like knowledge or madness, [00:36.760 --> 00:42.720] either is good. Welcome. So just of curiosity, how many people of you [00:42.720 --> 00:50.720] listen to podcasts? Very good. Pretty much everybody, right? Wow. How many people have [00:50.720 --> 00:59.000] heard prior to this gig about Linux in loss? Okay. Our two listeners are here. Wait. Martin, [00:59.000 --> 01:10.720] Martin, Martin. This is all planned. Ah, yes, yes. Did you win the bet, [01:10.720 --> 01:17.240] by any chance? Because Martin now just won officially the bet. So how many people actually [01:17.240 --> 01:24.080] have listened to one of our episodes prior to the presentation? This one gets the bottom [01:24.080 --> 01:29.720] up. After the presentation, please collect your price. Indeed, indeed. Well done, that man. [01:29.720 --> 01:37.800] Okay. On with the show. Yes. So thank you all for coming. So today is really about getting an [01:37.800 --> 01:43.200] idea of what our podcast is like, which is generally very free-flowing and well-prepared. [01:43.200 --> 01:49.320] Yes, but maybe before we go into the details, maybe we should kind of introduce ourselves [01:49.320 --> 01:55.680] more formally. Yes, yes. I'm Chris. I'm Martin. Actually, it's the other way around. This is [01:55.680 --> 02:00.480] Martin Visser. My name is Chris Simmerman. You want to say something about you? Sure, [02:00.480 --> 02:05.520] sure. So, yes, as you, well, some of you who may know that listen to our podcast, [02:05.520 --> 02:10.680] we've been doing some IT stuff for a bit. Chris is retired now, so he just does it as a hobby. [02:10.680 --> 02:17.360] But yeah, this is us. Martin has about 20 years of international arms trade, drug-crafting, [02:17.360 --> 02:24.520] and other professional activities, but no jokes aside. My name is Chris Simmerman. I have been [02:24.520 --> 02:33.720] using open source for the last 30 plus years. And I also run Lurken in Germany. The Lark Frankfurt [02:33.720 --> 02:41.760] have been doing community events for 10 years, and about three years ago, but more about that in [02:41.760 --> 02:46.480] a minute, we decided to start this podcast. So, Martin, what did you do prior to the podcast? [02:46.480 --> 02:54.400] Prior to the podcast. Well, so yeah, like yourself, been in IT since the year dot, messing around [02:54.400 --> 03:00.440] with PDP11s and all that kind of stuff. If anybody knows what that is, but yeah. So yeah, [03:00.440 --> 03:04.720] in short, we've been around for quite a while and been playing with open source software, [03:04.720 --> 03:11.680] which you will hear all about today. Exactly. And we should probably say where we actually [03:11.680 --> 03:18.160] met the first time. We can do, we can do. Probably in a bar somewhere, no? Well, we did. [03:18.160 --> 03:21.800] Just prior to that, basically, I was working at a company called Redis. Redis, if you're [03:21.800 --> 03:25.920] listening, if you're watching this on the stream, the email is a sponsor at Linux Inlast on you, [03:25.920 --> 03:31.520] in case. And no, this is where we met. And Martin decided to join that no secret [03:31.520 --> 03:39.000] database company. And this is basically where we met about three years, four years ago. [03:39.000 --> 03:49.040] You're forgetting COVID on you. So we were doing technical sales at the company. And now on with [03:49.040 --> 04:01.040] the history of the podcast, it is November 2019. Yes, a rainy, cold Prague. What even was the [04:01.040 --> 04:06.440] event? The event was actually sales kickoff. Ah, yes, of course, of course. Or business review. [04:06.440 --> 04:11.920] I can't remember. Who knows, you know, some corporate nonsense. Exactly. Yes. But yes, [04:11.920 --> 04:19.840] out of that was some craft beer places visited. And where we discussed all things open source [04:19.840 --> 04:27.560] between us. Indeed. Martin was choking on hot chicken wings. And so was I. And after a few [04:27.560 --> 04:33.000] years, basically, we both discovered that yes, we were heavily into open source. And we always had [04:33.000 --> 04:38.520] this intention of doing a podcast. And then we said, why not do it together? And actually the [04:38.520 --> 04:45.320] first episode that was published in 2020 in February of 2020 actually is aptly named or the [04:45.320 --> 04:52.200] second episode is actually aptly named for them. Because where mostly I talk about 2020 for them. [04:52.200 --> 04:59.640] You went there at the time. I did. Yes. I give a presentation in the rest of room on. What is [04:59.640 --> 05:15.280] it? Okay, cool. Done. Make closer. Make closer. Yes. Okay. No, there was, yeah, there was a [05:15.280 --> 05:21.480] deaf room presentation. And then basically that was our second episode that we did. So yes, we [05:21.480 --> 05:31.000] kind of stumbled upon a format that we both like as in discuss topics like operating systems, [05:31.000 --> 05:38.640] rust, programming languages, stuff like that. And in between that, we do various interviews of [05:38.640 --> 05:45.200] people that are notable in the open source community. The format is loosely modeled on [05:45.200 --> 05:52.200] something called Floss Weekly. I don't know if that rings a bell. Twitter TV is the publisher. But [05:52.200 --> 05:57.280] they do weekly shows with just interviews. And the idea that we had at the time when we kind of [05:57.280 --> 06:04.400] originally devised the podcast to share the episodes between knowledge transfer for one [06:04.400 --> 06:16.320] or for better expression. But also livening up the whole format with actually interview guests. It [06:16.320 --> 06:23.320] took us some time to come up with the exact format. It was also loosely based on, well, [06:23.320 --> 06:30.880] as the name says, some of you may have recognized Linux Outlaws. That was a podcast a while ago [06:30.880 --> 06:41.360] that had a similar kind of format, right? Almost. Who of you knows Linux Outlaws? Ah, okay. Yeah, [06:41.360 --> 06:49.840] about 15 years ago, FAPSchafter and Dylan shared the idea of actually doing, I think, [06:49.840 --> 06:56.160] a weekly format talking just about current events. Something that we started with too. [06:56.160 --> 07:01.680] Yeah, we did that, didn't we, for a while. But it's, yeah, with the delay between publishing and [07:01.680 --> 07:07.080] talking about current events. It wasn't that relevant because the podcast came out like three [07:07.080 --> 07:13.800] months later, right? Exactly. So, yeah, go ahead, man. Yeah, well, this kind of brings us to where [07:13.800 --> 07:19.920] we started as well. Our podcast was first on Hacker Puppy Radio, which you may be familiar with as [07:19.920 --> 07:29.920] well. They have a booth. They do. Well, Ken has a booth here. Yes. Ken has a booth called Free [07:29.920 --> 07:40.080] and Culture Podcast. And this is what we use originally to bootstrap ourselves. That was [07:40.080 --> 07:45.640] actually, I spoke to Ken, I forced him in 2020, and he said, we're more than happy to bootstrap you [07:45.640 --> 07:53.880] in terms of host you to get us initially off the ground. And that's exactly what we did before we [07:53.880 --> 08:01.280] changed this, but more on this in a minute. Yeah, so for anybody thinking of doing a podcast, very [08:01.280 --> 08:09.480] easy to get started. We have an episode on this as well. We do, yes, we do. So, yeah, personally, [08:09.480 --> 08:15.120] I like the interviews. I don't know about yourself, but we have some quite very good guests in the [08:15.120 --> 08:21.880] past that we've had, which you may know as well, like the likes of recent one we had to run Levy [08:21.880 --> 08:29.840] from. Religious life. Religious life, yes. So we had various people supporting open source like the [08:29.840 --> 08:37.720] FSFE. Which is actually in the audience. In the audience, indeed. And we had various people on [08:37.720 --> 08:48.320] programming languages, operating systems. We, yes. For those of you who are now becoming interested, [08:48.320 --> 08:55.920] we do have a back catalog. The website is linusinlows.eu. For example, we had a kernel maintainer [08:55.920 --> 09:03.720] panel. We did the same with BSD, of course. Program language panel, yes. Yeah, program language [09:03.720 --> 09:08.400] panel and all the rest of it. So the idea is basically to get people on the podcast, and not [09:08.400 --> 09:15.720] just one, ideally, but more than one, and talk about projects, political issues, that sort of [09:15.720 --> 09:21.120] thing. Ah, political issues. Is there the particular episode you're thinking of from the Georgia? Yes, [09:21.120 --> 09:25.320] we have the Electronic Frontier Foundation on the podcast, but also, of course, the Free Software [09:25.320 --> 09:31.520] Foundation Europe. Yeah, it's well worth listening to that one. As is the one by Paul Ramsey, [09:31.520 --> 09:36.520] would you remember that one? Vately, remind me. I mean, we've been doing almost 80 episodes by [09:36.520 --> 09:42.880] now. Yeah, so Paul Ramsey is a push GIS maintainer. I don't know if you, those of you familiar with [09:42.880 --> 09:49.680] Postgreps will know push GIS, but he's also very much a speaker on things open source. And he [09:49.680 --> 09:56.000] kind of raises a lot of points around, you know, open source is free and available, but, you know, [09:56.000 --> 10:01.480] you get just a few people maintaining it. So there should be more funding for open source [10:01.480 --> 10:07.160] contributors in a way, but specifically in government, right? Because government uses a lot [10:07.160 --> 10:14.200] of open source software, but they're not actually contributing, and the code should be free as well, [10:14.200 --> 10:21.760] things like that. So we had a lot of discussions about this. True, yes. I think it's fair to say [10:21.760 --> 10:28.720] that we keep a, or we try to keep a well balanced middle ground between technical stuff and also [10:28.720 --> 10:33.320] political stuff. Yeah, that's a good point. Probably fair to say. But it's about raising that [10:33.320 --> 10:40.680] profile as well, right? For open source and the people that make that software is part of what [10:40.680 --> 10:45.880] we want to do. Absolutely. And this is basically why we came up with the podcast in the first place. [10:45.880 --> 10:56.080] Yep. All those years ago. Well, all three of them. So having said that, we do bi-weekly [10:56.080 --> 11:05.240] episodes, right? So it's got a busy schedule. And yeah, we alternate between a topic and an interview. [11:05.240 --> 11:12.080] Now, we should probably mention something called the dark side, Martin. The dark side. Do tell. [11:12.080 --> 11:20.680] Martin and myself, when we set out doing the podcast, we had this idea of providing a little [11:20.680 --> 11:29.080] of color to the podcast. So you've been sort of a bit of a dark color. Exactly. So who knows [11:29.080 --> 11:38.840] something called the bastard operator from hell, BUFH? Okay. Matthias, this is nothing okay for [11:38.840 --> 11:45.280] enough. No, the BUFH was, I think about a format about what, 20 years ago, maybe less, maybe [11:45.280 --> 11:53.680] more. That's where actually a system administrator talks about his trials and tribulations has [11:53.680 --> 11:59.560] put it this way. And so we took this original idea and the dark side is loosely modeled on the [11:59.560 --> 12:06.560] bastard operator from hell, but turned this into a much more comedy-oriented format that's put it [12:06.560 --> 12:13.560] this way. Yeah, for sure. It's a bit of dark humor. Let's put it that way. And yeah, these are also [12:13.560 --> 12:18.520] the only parts that are scripted in the podcast. Yes, good point. Good point. Everything is [12:18.520 --> 12:25.400] normally very ad hoc apart from that. Yeah, it's free flow. Normally, we do these dark sides, bits [12:25.400 --> 12:32.200] and pieces as part of a Halloween special, for example. Halloween, Christmas, Easter. Yes. Any [12:32.200 --> 12:42.520] other religious holiday you may want. And do you want to talk about Dutch's fladesa, maybe? Some [12:42.520 --> 12:49.080] teaser? Well, okay. So we have this, you're particularly talking about the Halloween one, [12:49.080 --> 12:55.400] right? Yes. Those of you who've heard this one, we have a yearly Halloween episode where various, [12:55.400 --> 13:04.880] we have a friend of ours who participates and does a very good, let's say, female vampire [13:04.880 --> 13:09.880] impression. Yes. If that's possible in the podcast. Yeah, actually, she's from Macedonia, [13:09.880 --> 13:21.760] right? And there, essentially, she's our voice model. She's our voice actress. And mostly, [13:21.760 --> 13:27.520] these Halloween episodes, of course, have a Halloween topic. So essentially, the episode [13:27.520 --> 13:33.160] that I was referring to, and again, we normally do these kind of around Halloween, that sort [13:33.160 --> 13:40.600] of thing, refers to the tribulations that a certain Transylvanian Duchess encounters when [13:40.600 --> 13:46.320] her workforce decides to unionize. It's that sort of black humor, and I won't give away too much. [13:46.320 --> 13:51.080] You have to listen to the episode. It's that sort of black humor that drives the dark side. [13:51.080 --> 13:57.880] In addition to kind of, and the people basically who... Slightly more serious, [13:57.880 --> 14:03.320] a subject in other episodes. And apart from the humor that is woven into the interviews, [14:03.320 --> 14:10.880] into the other sessions. Definitely, definitely. On that subject. Yes. Clearly, we make this [14:10.880 --> 14:17.000] podcast partly for ourselves because we have a bit of fun making it. True. But it's clearly [14:17.000 --> 14:26.240] aimed at listeners. So we have many ways for people to provide feedback. Yes. Carry on. [14:26.240 --> 14:31.880] The email address is, of course, FeedbackLinux.eu, but since we should probably talk about the [14:31.880 --> 14:37.440] hosting aspect, too. Yes. We publish normally on archive.org. So if you have an archive.org [14:37.440 --> 14:44.080] account, you can also leave a commonly feedback there. We do not do it Twitter for obvious reasons. [14:44.080 --> 14:53.720] Yes. No, we haven't done Twitter any time to be making of the podcast because never [14:53.720 --> 15:00.320] much of recent. We started on the on HBR for a long time, right? And only recently kind of, [15:00.320 --> 15:05.600] on other podcast media, you'd be able to find us on most of those. Yes. Of course, [15:05.600 --> 15:10.360] when we were still on Hacker Public Radio, you could leave comments on Hacker Public Radio, too. [15:10.360 --> 15:16.600] Yes. And I mean, these comments are very important to us, really. I know it's something that, [15:16.600 --> 15:22.280] yeah, more feedback we get, the more they... Exactly. I mean, yeah, the podcast is done for [15:22.280 --> 15:33.600] you listeners, not for us. Certainly not for our sponsors, because we don't have any. No. What we [15:33.600 --> 15:38.840] also do is actually, we also invite people from other podcasts on the podcast. For example, [15:38.840 --> 15:45.080] the Linux Lads, if Shane or anybody else or Conan is here, but I don't see them. Also, [15:45.080 --> 15:48.800] but we should also probably talk about the Grumpy Old Coders, right? Grumpy Old Coders, [15:48.800 --> 15:56.480] yes. Another set of podcasters that have a... Well, not a similar format, but they have... Yeah, [15:56.480 --> 16:01.840] they're more on the technical side, right? They publish less frequently. But it's again, [16:01.840 --> 16:09.520] it's some friend of ours that we occasionally have some banter with. Exactly. Yes. What else [16:09.520 --> 16:15.840] is there to talk about Linux in-laws? Well, you should listen to it. That's the main thing. [16:15.840 --> 16:27.880] Yes. Yeah. So why should you listen to the Linux in-laws, right? That's your cue. You put [16:27.880 --> 16:34.760] your spotty on. Well, why would you listen to the Linux in-laws? If you wouldn't be making it? [16:34.760 --> 16:41.240] Personally, yeah. It's mainly because we do intermix the detect stuff with a bit of fun, [16:41.240 --> 16:47.920] right? That's the main thing. And personally, I like the interview pieces generally very much, [16:47.920 --> 16:52.280] because you get so many people from different parts of the world, from different projects, [16:52.280 --> 16:57.000] and they all have clearly an open-source link, but they all have different stories to tell. [16:57.000 --> 17:03.680] And about open-source and why it's good, and they're part in it, really. Very true, yes. [17:03.680 --> 17:10.440] What about you? Well, I've been doing open-source for the last 30 plus years, so... This is why [17:10.440 --> 17:16.920] you run an Apple Mac. Indeed. But as we all know, underneath is a well-hidden BSD system, right? [17:16.920 --> 17:21.360] So no worries. Do we not have an upcoming episode on Tuxedo computers? We do, [17:21.360 --> 17:26.520] but I don't think they're listening, so it's not worth mentioning that as a sponsor. No, [17:26.520 --> 17:42.560] no worries. But no, because we touch on, I reckon, subjects that move people in terms of open-source [17:42.560 --> 17:51.840] is more and more used across industries, countries, planets. I mean, whoever has a mobile phone [17:51.840 --> 17:57.040] running Android, but also running iOS, is essentially running open-source software. [17:57.040 --> 18:03.960] Android is powered by Linux, as probably most of you know, and beneath the iOS is something [18:03.960 --> 18:14.000] called BSD, both widely used open-source operating systems. And I reckon with doing Linux in-laws, [18:14.000 --> 18:19.920] we are providing a platform for projects to voice themselves, to make themselves heard. [18:19.920 --> 18:26.040] These are not just Linux subjects, right? We also, as mentioned, touch other parts of open-source, [18:26.040 --> 18:34.320] whether it's software and hardware occasionally. And politics. Politics, yes. Society topics, [18:34.320 --> 18:40.560] and all the rest of it, yes. Yeah, not to mention, yeah. The showering situation in Germany is a [18:40.560 --> 18:47.120] common topic. Yeah, I mean, we normally reckon, we normally open with a little bit of humor. I [18:47.120 --> 18:53.680] normally slag off the United Kingdom, and Martin returns these jokes with dire descriptions [18:53.680 --> 19:01.840] of the situation in Germany. That's probably fair to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yes. So, yeah. If you [19:01.840 --> 19:06.080] want to, no. In short, Linux in-laws, you want to learn a little bit, you want to listen to [19:06.080 --> 19:12.160] people that have things to say about open-source, and you like a bit of fun, just come and listen [19:12.160 --> 19:19.200] to us, really. That's the... Absolutely, yeah. Well, what's our slogan, by the way? You come for [19:19.200 --> 19:26.240] the knowledge, but stay for the madness. This is something that marketing came up with before [19:26.240 --> 19:30.800] you fired them, right? Marketing? What is marketing? The department that you... Is that the people that [19:30.800 --> 19:41.920] make the t-shirts? No. So, who makes the t-shirts? The people with graphically designed capabilities [19:41.920 --> 19:47.200] I suppose. Fair enough, fair enough. No, we should talk about the logo, actually, no? You can talk [19:47.200 --> 19:51.840] about the logo, yes, yes. Oh, how many stickers have you brought, actually? Yes, you can find [19:51.840 --> 19:58.400] stickers, actually, at the Free Culture Podcast booth. Oh, you didn't have any photo listeners here? [19:58.400 --> 20:04.560] I do, yeah. Only about four or five. You find the rest, actually, at the booth. It's a prototype. [20:04.560 --> 20:10.480] Yes. So, yeah, very, very, very, very, very... Like the t-shirts. The first batch, yes. So, [20:10.480 --> 20:18.960] the logo, Martin, why did we need a new logo? Well, mainly because the previous logo was based on [20:18.960 --> 20:24.640] some pictures of us of 20 years ago. True, true, true. It's not that representative anymore. [20:25.760 --> 20:30.640] But, yeah, certain podcasts, let's say, publishers also didn't like the format, so... [20:31.280 --> 20:38.640] So, we had to change this. And after about 20,000 focus group sessions, quite a few... [20:38.640 --> 20:44.400] This is without marketing. Debates, exactly. Quite a few debates. Debates, [20:45.920 --> 20:52.960] due to various sessions, we came up with a new logo, which I hope you will find on most podcasting [20:52.960 --> 21:01.040] platforms also. By the way, yeah, although Ken is not in the audience, I think we should probably [21:01.040 --> 21:08.080] talk about metrics. Okay, go ahead. Metrics in terms of basically how many people... [21:08.080 --> 21:12.720] Well, metrics, metrics. We had done some metrics in the room today, so we could... [21:12.720 --> 21:24.560] About what? 150, maybe 108 people in the room. We host our episodes, our MP3s, on now, [21:25.200 --> 21:33.120] Ark of the Rock. And the download stats for an average one episode, just on that platform alone, [21:33.120 --> 21:43.840] clock in between 2,500 downloads per episode. But if you type Linux in-laws into your search [21:43.840 --> 21:49.360] engine of choice, you come up with a syndication left, right, and center. So it's probably... [21:49.360 --> 21:55.280] Or even your podcast app of choice, right? Yes. So it's probably fair to say that, on average, [21:55.280 --> 21:59.040] we are listened to by more than 8,000 people per episode. Give or take a few. [21:59.040 --> 22:08.000] Yes, unfortunately, they don't all feedback today. It's just a shame. Shall we interview [22:08.000 --> 22:16.160] someone in the room? Where is that listener? Where'd he go? You want to... Okay, he doesn't. [22:16.160 --> 22:20.960] Okay, fair enough. He's too shy for that. That's a shame. We should get him framed. [22:20.960 --> 22:30.160] By the way, when did you start to listen to Linux in-laws, if I may ask? [22:41.040 --> 22:47.120] Okay. Did you get that? Something about feedback. Sorry. Okay, let's talk later on this, sorry. [22:47.120 --> 22:55.280] Okay, no, we were just curious because... We get feedback at times, but the more we get, [22:55.280 --> 23:01.200] the better, obviously. Exactly, because essentially, we do the podcast for you in terms of, okay, [23:01.200 --> 23:07.200] this is our show, but we live on feedback because if you think, and that goes for anybody listening [23:07.200 --> 23:13.280] to us, if there's a subject that is of interest for you, feel free to give feedback so we can get [23:13.280 --> 23:19.760] that project on the show, talk to these politicians, whatever. And we're not kind of fixed on one [23:19.760 --> 23:26.080] particular topic, right? If you take the Ran Levy example with Manish's life, they're very much [23:26.080 --> 23:31.040] focused on security. Very true, yes. We'll do an episode on security, but we won't do a whole [23:31.040 --> 23:37.440] bit podcast on that. We'll do anything around open source. Exactly, needless to say, an open [23:37.440 --> 23:43.440] source angle would help. Yes, that would do. But at the end of the day, the Electronic [23:43.440 --> 23:50.720] Frontier Foundation is more like about civil rights. And when we did the episode with the [23:50.720 --> 23:55.680] Georgian chapter, I think one of the focus points of that interview was actually gun laws. [23:57.520 --> 24:04.160] Yes. For example. So the point that I'm making here is, yes, open source is important for us, [24:04.160 --> 24:12.000] but so are the politics and the civil rights aspects behind this whole notion, behind this whole [24:12.000 --> 24:17.360] revolution. Well, this is the part about free, isn't it, really, that we have in free and open [24:17.360 --> 24:22.400] source software that we also have talked about. Absolutely. And that's exactly the reason why [24:22.400 --> 24:29.360] we try to maintain a balance between technical and non-technical subjects. Ah, yes. And also, [24:29.360 --> 24:33.920] if you do have trouble sleeping, there is an episode on licenses, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, an open [24:33.920 --> 24:45.280] source license. But we didn't have guests on this. So yeah, it has many uses. We should probably [24:45.280 --> 24:50.800] talk about the road ahead, right? I mean, we've been doing this for the last three years now. [24:50.800 --> 25:00.000] Yeah. Where do you want to take this one? Apart from the usual world domination, making lots of [25:00.000 --> 25:08.480] money, how is yet to be determined? The objective is already kind of met, right? We're spreading the [25:08.480 --> 25:14.560] word and supporting the projects and the people that make open source. So we continue doing that, [25:14.560 --> 25:21.600] in my opinion. True, true, true. But maybe there's something more. Is there? Probably. Do tell. Some [25:21.600 --> 25:26.240] people have suggested, when we still have the focus groups, that more humor might be in order, [25:26.240 --> 25:31.600] for example, as in more dark side stuff. Okay. Well, we'll have to get some feedback on that, [25:31.600 --> 25:41.280] won't we? Indeed, indeed. Yes. What happened? I need to say, if our listeners have more ideas, [25:41.280 --> 25:45.840] the modern area. Indeed. Well, we have, I mean, the whole year is planned out pretty much, but [25:45.840 --> 25:54.320] there's always room for, of course, stuff for sure. Like today. And I mean, if you are maintaining a [25:54.320 --> 25:59.280] project that you, that you, as in you in the audience, that you would like to see feature on [25:59.280 --> 26:08.160] Linux in-laws, free to talk to us after this talk goes without saying. Yes. Now, this is exactly [26:08.160 --> 26:13.600] the point, right? If you have things that you want to be vocal about or talk about open source [26:13.600 --> 26:18.240] related, whether it's a project or your community efforts, come talk to us and we'll put you on [26:18.240 --> 26:25.520] the podcast. And with us, it's probably time for our interview guest. Oh, interview guest. Yes. [26:26.320 --> 26:32.000] We do have an interview guest. Right. Welcome. Welcome. Matias, why don't you join us on the stage? [26:32.960 --> 26:37.040] It's a little bit ahead of time, but more than Maria anyway. You'll get a bit of an [26:37.040 --> 26:42.640] appeal for how we do that episode. For those of you who do not know Matias Kirschner, [26:43.440 --> 26:49.600] why don't you introduce yourself? Yes. My name is Matias Kirschner. I'm the president of the [26:49.600 --> 26:56.480] Free Software Foundation Europe. That's my day job. And yeah, beside that, I did some volunteer [26:56.480 --> 27:06.160] activities, which is probably the topic of this interview. Absolutely. So hands up. Who does not [27:06.160 --> 27:12.000] know what the Free Software Foundation Europe does and is? So everybody knows the FSFE. You can skip [27:12.000 --> 27:18.400] that question. Fair enough. That was what she was getting at. Okay. Of course, that's also an [27:18.400 --> 27:24.320] episode from something called links and loss on the FSFE. But yes, why don't you tell us a little [27:24.320 --> 27:33.760] bit about how you came into the open source world? Put you on the spot right now. Oh, I first, [27:33.760 --> 27:42.240] the start was that I asked my father to subscribe to more newspapers so I can inform myself from [27:42.240 --> 27:49.760] more sources to see who is trying to accomplish world domination. And my father said, oh, that's [27:49.760 --> 27:56.000] too expensive. But I read something about this internet. And I will make sure that you get this, [27:56.880 --> 28:02.320] which was at that time probably more expensive and long run with the modem there. But yeah, [28:02.320 --> 28:07.360] I started with that. And then I had a second computer at home. And I tried to connect them. [28:07.360 --> 28:11.760] And I wanted to send emails to them without connecting to the internet. And it didn't work. [28:11.760 --> 28:18.080] Also, both of those computers had an email program on them. I complained at school. Someone said, [28:18.080 --> 28:23.520] I have something for you. Brought some floppies, brought some CDs. And then I installed my first [28:23.520 --> 28:31.600] GNU Linux distribution. And a few months later, I had a mail server. And from there on, then I [28:31.600 --> 28:40.880] read more about technology. I organized meetups to install parties for in the local groups, [28:40.880 --> 28:47.760] went to events. And then I read more and more about that it's also about political, social [28:47.760 --> 28:56.080] beliefs. And that's how I get interested in FSFE. Yeah, I understand the technical background, [28:56.080 --> 29:01.280] but there's clearly more to it for yourself than just the tech side with open source. [29:01.280 --> 29:08.640] I mean, at that time, I wasn't able to say, to formulate it this way. But in the end, for me, [29:08.640 --> 29:15.200] it's free software is a way to distribute power in our society. I think, I mean, democracies [29:15.200 --> 29:21.680] depend on distributing power. And we also need a distribution of technological power. And free [29:21.680 --> 29:26.800] software is an important tool for that to make sure that there is not one entity has too much [29:26.800 --> 29:31.840] power in our society. And I think that's the main part which is driving me for the work there. [29:32.880 --> 29:35.680] Very good. Very good. Did you want to take the next one? [29:35.680 --> 29:40.320] And why did you decide to join, eventually, the Free Software Foundation Europe? [29:42.560 --> 29:47.360] So at that time, then, I mean, there was, at this point, I had this political interest, [29:47.360 --> 29:50.960] I had this technical interest. I thought there are so many people on the internet, [29:50.960 --> 29:54.640] when you have questions about technical issues, you can ask. And there are so many [29:54.640 --> 29:58.880] bright people who will help you to figure it out. But about the political stuff, [29:58.880 --> 30:03.840] I was not able to figure it out myself. So I studied politics and management then. [30:04.400 --> 30:09.760] And we had to do a seven-month internship. And I asked some people, some DBM developers, [30:09.760 --> 30:16.320] I knew, where could I do that? And one of the suggestions was the FSFE. And then I read about [30:16.320 --> 30:21.200] them and applied there. And after a long or back and forth, because they didn't have [30:21.200 --> 30:26.240] interns before and didn't have an office at that time and didn't have money to pay. [30:27.120 --> 30:32.560] In the end, I ended up there in the one-room apartment of the president at that time on the [30:32.560 --> 30:37.920] sofa. He had a desk. And from there, I then worked and attended Free Software events, [30:37.920 --> 30:43.520] including my first FOSSTEM, then in 2005. Very nice. Very nice. So there's clearly, [30:43.520 --> 30:50.720] yeah. What's next after that? Is there some other will-domination plan for yourself? [30:51.840 --> 31:00.000] I think the one that is running is the topic we... I don't know what you want to say already about [31:00.000 --> 31:12.320] your next episode. Tease it away. Now is probably a good time to feature an upcoming presentation [31:12.320 --> 31:20.480] today, or reading rather? Yeah. So I will do a reading of this new book, which I wrote. It's [31:20.480 --> 31:26.000] called Ada and Sangamann, A Tale of Software, Skateboards, and Raspberry Ice Cream. It's about [31:26.000 --> 31:32.480] encouraging people to tinker with computers. It's about software freedom in a way that is [31:32.480 --> 31:39.280] hopefully encouraging them to think on their own how they want to use technology. It will be at [31:39.280 --> 31:47.360] six o'clock now. I have to check the room again in UB 2147. And there I will do a reading of the [31:47.360 --> 31:56.400] book in 30 minutes. And afterwards, answer some questions about how to write a book with under [31:56.400 --> 32:02.240] free license. Get that published by O'Reilly for the German version and No Start Press for the [32:02.240 --> 32:08.800] English version, plus other language versions. Clearly you have an objective with the book, [32:08.800 --> 32:14.160] right? It's not just, oh, let's write a book for a bit of fun, but there is more to it than that, [32:14.160 --> 32:23.200] if I'm not mistaken. I mean, at the beginning, my main idea was how can I explain this topic [32:23.200 --> 32:29.120] to my own children? And I asked if others have some ideas about that, and if there are some [32:29.120 --> 32:36.640] existing books, and they were either for older children, or they were about a bit complicated. [32:36.640 --> 32:42.960] And then I started to tell some bedtime stories myself, always a bit improvised, and then depending [32:42.960 --> 32:52.000] on the feedback, I was then just changing the stories at that time, and then in the end, this [32:52.000 --> 32:59.360] came out of it. Is this your personal kind of initiative, or is this something that the FSF [32:59.360 --> 33:05.360] is trying to promote in terms of, you know, making awareness amongst younger people? I mean, [33:05.360 --> 33:11.840] at the beginning, it was a personal project of mine, and I was also writing this on my own time. [33:12.480 --> 33:18.160] Then at one point, I talked to someone and told him about this plan, and he said, well, [33:18.160 --> 33:25.440] if you will write a book about free software, then I will buy 1000 copies and give that to [33:25.440 --> 33:35.360] customers. And then I talked with the FSF and then I got the confirmation that I can spend [33:36.000 --> 33:42.720] a few hundred euros to get an editor on board, so that I can get someone with experience how to [33:42.720 --> 33:48.800] actually write a children's book. And yeah, when we had this, then we could also hire an illustrator [33:48.800 --> 33:55.600] to do the illustrations for the book, and get an illustrator to understand Creative Commons licensing, [33:55.600 --> 34:03.600] which is very unusual for this area, and then we were also quite lucky to get two publishers [34:03.600 --> 34:11.680] on board who also understand free licensing, and agreed to publish this as commercial publishers [34:11.680 --> 34:19.520] under CC Buy, share like. Excellent, excellent. So where can people find the book? So the [34:19.520 --> 34:32.320] German one, you brought some with you today. So this is the commercial part, or at the German [34:32.320 --> 34:38.160] version, you can already buy that everywhere. The US version, the English version, you can at the [34:38.160 --> 34:43.280] moment just get that from the US publisher, because the worldwide distribution just starts in May. [34:43.920 --> 34:51.440] So the FSFE, we got some of the books and brought them through customs, which was a pain, [34:52.240 --> 34:58.800] and we have them at the booth, and so we have a few amount of those here. And yeah, [34:58.800 --> 35:05.360] else from now on already, you can order that at every bookstore and pre-order will be shipped in [35:05.360 --> 35:11.280] May. And tonight you're doing the first, let's say, reading of the English version, right? [35:11.280 --> 35:15.840] Yeah, that was one of my wishes, that FOSSTEM will be the place where I do the first [35:15.840 --> 35:20.880] reading of the English book, and yeah, I will do that there, and for everyone else, you would like [35:21.920 --> 35:28.720] to do that. I mean, you can first try it out, and one of my recommendations is it's a really great [35:28.720 --> 35:34.640] tool to talk to children about our topics. I did several readings with the German version [35:34.640 --> 35:41.200] at schools with 30 people, 40 children, or even once in a cinema with 150 children, [35:41.920 --> 35:47.200] talking with them about that, answering their questions they have, or having some discussions [35:47.200 --> 35:52.640] about what they want to invent, how computers work, and so on. And so we have all the slides and [35:52.640 --> 35:58.640] the text and where to change slides and all kind of other information, how you can do that on our [35:58.640 --> 36:05.040] git repository, it's all freely licensed, you can make changes to it, let's see what's coming out, [36:05.840 --> 36:12.400] you can make a sequel. Yeah, it's, I think that's something we will also discuss in the show, [36:13.280 --> 36:20.400] probably a tool for world domination. And for those of you who cannot make it at 6 p.m., [36:20.960 --> 36:25.200] there will be a reading on something called Linux Inlass in an upcoming episode, more than [36:25.200 --> 36:31.920] likely in April. So if you missed this reading tonight, feel free to tune in or download that [36:31.920 --> 36:40.720] particular episode. Okay. Anything else we should discuss with the president while we have him on [36:40.720 --> 36:49.200] the stage, Martin? I think we still have some minutes left. No, I think we have some minutes [36:49.200 --> 36:54.000] left. So I mean, I think the subject has been beaten to death, but anywhere I would like still [36:54.000 --> 37:02.800] to have your opinion on this. Richard M. Salman, just two sentences on this, just to wake up the [37:02.800 --> 37:10.080] audience once again. I mean, it's history for enough, but it's been a while, but I think he has [37:10.800 --> 37:15.040] made a rebound in terms of he's back on the board now, right, of the Free Software Fund. I know that [37:15.040 --> 37:23.200] the FSFE issues a statement after the Holy Barclay, but I reckon he's back on track now at least [37:23.200 --> 37:31.200] in the U.S., no? I mean, any views on this that you would like to share? Oh, that's very complicated. [37:31.200 --> 37:37.920] Okay. And we still have, I think, 10 minutes left. The abridged version. [37:39.200 --> 37:47.920] Yeah. Now I was cornered here on this topic. Now, I think that's a really complicated [37:47.920 --> 37:54.320] discussion, and it's also a discussion which, at the moment, I also prefer to have some [37:54.320 --> 38:03.120] personal conversations with other people involved in this before this is going public. So I'm sorry, [38:03.120 --> 38:09.520] but this is a bit too difficult to discuss. Very diplomatic answer. Back to much more [38:09.520 --> 38:12.960] safer grounds. Where do you see the Free Software Foundation Europe going? [38:12.960 --> 38:24.080] I mean, what I see is that the topics are going more and more mainstream, and so [38:25.360 --> 38:33.840] one of the big challenges there is how can we make sure that this topic doesn't stay at [38:33.840 --> 38:40.160] FOSTA and at some Free Software conferences, but that we are going to other conferences [38:40.160 --> 38:48.080] and connect with other topics which are ongoing and which are very much influenced by our topics [38:48.080 --> 38:53.120] that we are usually discussing here. So when we talk about, there are discussions in the [38:53.120 --> 39:00.640] sustainability area, which when you, there's a huge dependency on can you really make changes [39:00.640 --> 39:11.360] to hardware, software, and how is technology developed? There are questions about who should [39:11.360 --> 39:17.680] have control over the computers. Like, I mean, we have net neutrality. On the other hand, [39:17.680 --> 39:21.840] it's very important that we also have device neutrality so that every one of us has the right [39:21.840 --> 39:28.160] to install or remove software on our devices, that we can change web browsers, that we can change [39:28.160 --> 39:34.000] app stores, that we can change the services which are connected to our devices, and that's [39:34.000 --> 39:41.440] something which is, I mean, at the time when the movement started, it was small and we had some [39:41.440 --> 39:46.240] desktop machines and some laptops, and now we have the computers everywhere, and now, I mean, [39:46.240 --> 39:51.680] there are so many people who have questions about this topic, so it's more and more important to [39:51.680 --> 39:57.440] translate this to a more general audience, people who don't have such a knowledge about [39:57.440 --> 40:05.360] technology, and that's something which was, the FSFE always was doing this, but that's [40:05.360 --> 40:11.680] something where we have more and more demand about that, and it's now not anymore that you [40:11.680 --> 40:16.320] want to talk with people about free software, and most of them say, oh, I'm not interested, [40:16.320 --> 40:22.480] it's now more the problem that there are so many people who have questions about that, and we just [40:22.480 --> 40:28.960] have a limited amount of resources, so the important thing is how can we enable more people, [40:28.960 --> 40:35.040] more volunteers to also work on these topics, that's also why, with this book, I mean, I'm [40:35.040 --> 40:40.640] invited to do a lot of readings at schools, but I will not be able to fulfill this, that the demand [40:40.640 --> 40:46.720] there, so we need to enable others to also do that and do this, and that's also for the, [40:46.720 --> 40:55.440] for all the other topics, with device neutrality, with sustainability, with public money, public [40:55.440 --> 41:01.520] code, one of the campaigns we are running, where there are so many governments which are interested, [41:01.520 --> 41:06.400] and public administrations that are interested, yes, I'm totally convinced, but how do I do that, [41:06.960 --> 41:13.760] and so that's one of the big challenges there, how do we enable that, and I mean, during the last [41:13.760 --> 41:19.760] three years, it was very difficult to motivate volunteers to get in contact with new volunteers, [41:19.760 --> 41:26.080] that's why something like FOSTA now is very important there, I mean, public money, public [41:26.080 --> 41:31.200] code was the first campaign where I came across the FSFV all those years back, at the moment, [41:31.200 --> 41:35.760] you're running a sustainability campaign in the era of mobile devices, if I recall correctly, [41:36.320 --> 41:43.280] that was upcycling Android, where we help people to install other ROMs, other operating systems [41:43.280 --> 41:48.720] on their mobile devices and also explain people that it's important that you can install or [41:48.720 --> 41:55.760] remove software from devices and repair devices, so that's one other area. Okay, and would you go [41:55.760 --> 42:01.840] as far as kind of associating these campaigns with the right to repair that you all, that you [42:01.840 --> 42:06.800] almost touched upon a minute ago? Yeah, I mean, the right to repair is definitely one part of this [42:06.800 --> 42:16.320] whole device neutrality area. Any future campaigns that you want to tease now? I mean, there are [42:16.320 --> 42:22.080] several things that will come up, but one thing that for me is very important at this time of the [42:22.080 --> 42:28.080] year, so it's February, and on the 14th of February, we are always running the iLoveFree [42:28.080 --> 42:34.480] software day, the idea at that time was I thought that the flower industry is benefiting so much [42:34.480 --> 42:40.480] from this day. Why can't we have something where the free software community is benefiting from this? [42:43.040 --> 42:51.680] Yeah, so and I think in our community, we give each other very open feedback, very direct feedback, [42:51.680 --> 42:58.080] but sometimes we forget to say thank you to all those amazing people here at the conference who [42:58.080 --> 43:04.080] help others with their knowledge, who share their software with others, and so at the 14th of February, [43:04.080 --> 43:09.440] we always encourage everyone out there to thank other free software contributors out there, [43:10.240 --> 43:16.240] buy them a beverage, send them a letter or a postcard, or I mean, just in general, say thank [43:16.240 --> 43:21.680] you to them, because it's something which in the end, I mean, all of those people, they are doing [43:21.680 --> 43:28.960] such a great job, such an important contribution to our society, which we often forget about, [43:28.960 --> 43:35.120] and so do this on the 14th of February, add it to your calendar, and the next day you can continue [43:35.120 --> 43:40.160] to write feature requests, bug reports, complain why this programming language is used and not the [43:40.160 --> 43:47.840] other, and why this approach is bad and yours is better, but yeah, don't forget to say thank you [43:47.840 --> 43:54.080] once a year, at least. Also, there are, at least in Germany, there are a couple of events taking [43:54.080 --> 44:00.480] place, for example, one of the Frankfurt user groups, I think it's even the CCC, as in the [44:00.480 --> 44:08.480] KS computer club, has an event at the headquarters celebrating this free software day, so if you [44:08.480 --> 44:15.200] want to take part in this, check out, is it on the website? So yeah, on the website fsv.org, [44:15.200 --> 44:21.360] in the news section, you find an entry there about I Love Free Software Day, and several local [44:21.360 --> 44:26.560] groups are also organizing events, where we are inviting free software contributors, make sure [44:26.560 --> 44:30.960] that there are some pizzas, some cake, and there are people who can thank the others. We have, [44:31.680 --> 44:38.080] in Berlin, also, at Seabase Hacker Space, we have a DJ there, we have an event in Crees, [44:38.080 --> 44:43.920] we have an event in Frankfurt, and there are others there, and if you want to organize that on [44:43.920 --> 44:48.800] your, something like that, on your own, let us know, so we can also list your I Love Free Software [44:48.800 --> 44:55.680] Day event, it's an event where we hope that many of you here, many of the people visiting for [44:55.680 --> 45:00.800] them, will receive a thank you for your work, and well, if you want to organize something there, [45:00.800 --> 45:08.800] let us know. We can also help you a bit when you register there, that we could cover like the pizza [45:08.800 --> 45:14.720] for this event or so, and just write us an email, and we will see that we can also financially [45:14.720 --> 45:22.480] support when you want to organize that, so that, because we think that if every euro that is invested [45:22.480 --> 45:28.560] in such a nice event, and some nice cake there, that this will benefit Free Software in the long [45:28.560 --> 45:35.040] run a lot, because it's so motivating to receive, yeah, some appreciation for your work. [45:35.040 --> 45:39.840] Sounds like a bit like the dark side, really, we have cookies, don't we, cake in this case. [45:39.840 --> 45:44.240] So people, this has been almost a live session of something called Linux in-laws, [45:44.240 --> 45:49.600] this is the format that we normally do every, every, every month, as in bringing guests on stage, [45:49.600 --> 45:55.760] putting him or her on the spot, and then having a little bit of fun. If you like this, the feed [45:55.760 --> 46:02.320] address is on the, is on the, is on the screen, I think we have time for one more question [46:02.320 --> 46:10.320] from the audience. Is there any question that you would like to get answered right now, [46:10.960 --> 46:14.960] preferably from a foster, from a, from a free and open-source software background? [46:17.600 --> 46:23.280] If there isn't, thank you very much for listening, I'm tempted to say, [46:24.480 --> 46:30.400] there will be a session tonight, as in you can ask us anything, you also find the address on [46:30.400 --> 46:35.760] the website, it's just a little bit of fun. At that pub, we're going to start at about 8.30, [46:37.440 --> 46:43.680] the place isn't too big, so just make sure that you are there on time in order to, [46:43.680 --> 46:48.560] to avoid, to avoid disappointment if you can't get in. So 8.30 at that address, [46:48.560 --> 46:53.200] you also find this on Linux in-laws, you just click on the foster tab. Thank you very much. [46:53.200 --> 47:02.720] Thank you very much. Thank you.