[00:00.000 --> 00:07.000]  We got a round of applause for Bruce, please.
[00:07.000 --> 00:12.000]  Hello, everybody.
[00:12.000 --> 00:14.000]  My name is Bruce Momjin.
[00:14.000 --> 00:16.000]  I am from Philadelphia.
[00:16.000 --> 00:18.000]  I am one of the Postgres Court team members,
[00:18.000 --> 00:20.000]  and I'm going to talk for the next 30 minutes
[00:20.000 --> 00:23.000]  about some of the nuts and bolts
[00:23.000 --> 00:26.000]  of building open-source teams.
[00:26.000 --> 00:29.000]  I know the previous talk was a little more
[00:29.000 --> 00:31.000]  high-level.
[00:31.000 --> 00:34.000]  This is definitely trend-travel activity here
[00:34.000 --> 00:39.000]  because that's what I've done for a long time.
[00:39.000 --> 00:42.000]  I'm basically a co-founder of the Postgres Internet
[00:42.000 --> 00:43.000]  Development Group.
[00:43.000 --> 00:45.000]  We have a dev room downstairs.
[00:45.000 --> 00:48.000]  We had a big conference on Friday at local hotel.
[00:48.000 --> 00:50.000]  We have a whole bunch of events coming up.
[00:50.000 --> 00:54.000]  Paris, Stockholm, Malta.
[00:54.000 --> 00:56.000]  We got one in Chicago.
[00:56.000 --> 00:58.000]  We're going to be at scale in a couple months.
[00:58.000 --> 01:04.000]  We have Ottawa and hopefully one in Singapore
[01:04.000 --> 01:07.000]  coming up, so a whole bunch of stuff going on.
[01:07.000 --> 01:09.000]  I travel a lot.
[01:09.000 --> 01:12.000]  I've been a court team member since the community started
[01:12.000 --> 01:15.000]  in 1996, and I've worked for three open-source companies.
[01:15.000 --> 01:18.000]  I've been around the block, and I have some insights
[01:18.000 --> 01:21.000]  into how we've built Postgres and some of the things
[01:21.000 --> 01:24.000]  that work for us.
[01:24.000 --> 01:27.000]  What I want to talk about first is motivation.
[01:27.000 --> 01:31.000]  There's something a lot of people don't talk about.
[01:31.000 --> 01:35.000]  We take it for granted that people are going to come to us,
[01:35.000 --> 01:37.000]  but why do they come to us?
[01:37.000 --> 01:39.000]  Why do they want to be involved in open-source?
[01:39.000 --> 01:40.000]  What interests them?
[01:40.000 --> 01:44.000]  Why are they even giving their time to us?
[01:44.000 --> 01:47.000]  It's kind of a trench question.
[01:47.000 --> 01:50.000]  Talk a little bit about open-source management
[01:50.000 --> 01:53.000]  and how we manage the open-source project,
[01:53.000 --> 01:56.000]  and then I'll talk a little bit about the development process.
[01:56.000 --> 01:58.000]  Open-source motivations.
[01:58.000 --> 02:01.000]  This is actually from a study done in 2002
[02:01.000 --> 02:05.000]  published in the Register URL here right at the bottom.
[02:05.000 --> 02:07.000]  By the way, these slides are actually on my website,
[02:07.000 --> 02:10.000]  so if you want to go here, feel free to get the slides
[02:10.000 --> 02:13.000]  and do whatever you want with them.
[02:13.000 --> 02:16.000]  What they basically did a survey,
[02:16.000 --> 02:19.000]  and they found that the major motivations
[02:19.000 --> 02:21.000]  for people getting involved with open-source
[02:21.000 --> 02:25.000]  were professional advancement, learning new skills.
[02:25.000 --> 02:29.000]  That's probably what got me involved in new skills.
[02:29.000 --> 02:31.000]  Practical need for the software.
[02:31.000 --> 02:35.000]  Maybe they have a business need for the software to be enhanced.
[02:35.000 --> 02:38.000]  There's a lot of people in the Postgres community like that.
[02:38.000 --> 02:41.000]  Or their business wants the software to thrive.
[02:41.000 --> 02:43.000]  Now, that's my employer, EDB,
[02:43.000 --> 02:45.000]  wants Postgres to thrive so they pay me
[02:45.000 --> 02:48.000]  to kind of do my crazy thing.
[02:48.000 --> 02:53.000]  Mental stimulation is actually a valid reason to get involved.
[02:53.000 --> 02:57.000]  I was actually one of my also reasons for getting involved.
[02:57.000 --> 03:00.000]  I was always curious how a relational database worked
[03:00.000 --> 03:03.000]  and Postgres was open-source so I could actually see it work.
[03:03.000 --> 03:06.000]  It was exciting to me.
[03:06.000 --> 03:09.000]  And finally, the belief in open-source,
[03:09.000 --> 03:13.000]  the belief that open-source is a good
[03:13.000 --> 03:17.000]  and therefore I want to invest in that.
[03:17.000 --> 03:20.000]  So these are kind of the four big ones.
[03:20.000 --> 03:23.000]  I'll tell you the real thing that nobody talks about
[03:23.000 --> 03:25.000]  is if you go up to somebody who works in open-source
[03:25.000 --> 03:28.000]  and you say, which one of these are you,
[03:28.000 --> 03:30.000]  they may not even know.
[03:30.000 --> 03:36.000]  And the weird part of it is that they all kind of work together.
[03:36.000 --> 03:39.000]  Yeah, I love the mental stimulation aspect
[03:39.000 --> 03:42.000]  and I actually kind of have a need for it
[03:42.000 --> 03:45.000]  and I'm learning new skills and that might help me in my career.
[03:45.000 --> 03:48.000]  And open-source stuff is cool and I like helping people.
[03:48.000 --> 03:50.000]  Which one is it?
[03:50.000 --> 03:53.000]  Well, it's kind of all of them kind of mushed together
[03:53.000 --> 03:56.000]  and I may be able to give you percentages a little bit
[03:56.000 --> 03:59.000]  but that's part of the beauty of it.
[03:59.000 --> 04:02.000]  Usually, if I say somebody, go dig a ditch,
[04:02.000 --> 04:04.000]  they're going to say, okay, how much are you going to give me
[04:04.000 --> 04:06.000]  for digging the ditch?
[04:06.000 --> 04:08.000]  They kind of know what's motivating them
[04:08.000 --> 04:10.000]  because they just don't want to dig a ditch.
[04:10.000 --> 04:12.000]  But for open-source software,
[04:12.000 --> 04:15.000]  it's like multiple motivations all kind of working together
[04:15.000 --> 04:18.000]  and flowing together.
[04:18.000 --> 04:21.000]  And healthy open-source projects are able to have
[04:21.000 --> 04:26.000]  all of those aspects working at the same time.
[04:26.000 --> 04:29.000]  And if you focus on just one of them,
[04:29.000 --> 04:31.000]  which I know some projects do,
[04:31.000 --> 04:35.000]  you're really not taking advantage of the full spectrum
[04:35.000 --> 04:41.000]  of ways of attracting developers.
[04:41.000 --> 04:43.000]  I know this is kind of,
[04:43.000 --> 04:45.000]  I've never heard anybody talk of it before,
[04:45.000 --> 04:47.000]  but when you see it in writing,
[04:47.000 --> 04:49.000]  you're like, yeah, I guess that does kind of make sense
[04:49.000 --> 04:51.000]  because that's kind of how I got involved
[04:51.000 --> 04:53.000]  and that's what motivates me.
[04:53.000 --> 04:57.000]  So there's all this kind of stuff that doesn't really make sense
[04:57.000 --> 05:01.000]  but actually it actually does.
[05:01.000 --> 05:05.000]  I mentioned mental stimulation.
[05:05.000 --> 05:10.000]  Programming is one of those unusual activities
[05:10.000 --> 05:13.000]  that does not require any upfront money.
[05:13.000 --> 05:14.000]  As long as you have a computer,
[05:14.000 --> 05:17.000]  you can do as much programming as you want.
[05:17.000 --> 05:21.000]  You're not paying per hour or paying per piece
[05:21.000 --> 05:25.000]  or paying for wire or paying for fabrication
[05:25.000 --> 05:26.000]  of some kind of equipment.
[05:26.000 --> 05:32.000]  It's basically a malleable and a cost-free medium
[05:32.000 --> 05:34.000]  that you can continue changing.
[05:34.000 --> 05:38.000]  And that cost-free aspect actually helps people get involved
[05:38.000 --> 05:40.000]  with Postgres particularly.
[05:40.000 --> 05:42.000]  It's kind of a puzzle to solve some of the problems
[05:42.000 --> 05:44.000]  we have to do so that some people like,
[05:44.000 --> 05:46.000]  how many people like puzzles, right?
[05:46.000 --> 05:48.000]  I mean, yeah, it's kind of fun, right?
[05:48.000 --> 05:51.000]  Postgres has a ton of puzzles that are really hard
[05:51.000 --> 05:53.000]  and a whole bunch of people would love to work together
[05:53.000 --> 05:54.000]  to solve them.
[05:54.000 --> 05:56.000]  That's one of the things that attracts people.
[05:56.000 --> 05:58.000]  It kind of makes sense.
[05:58.000 --> 06:00.000]  They wouldn't say it this way,
[06:00.000 --> 06:02.000]  but when you look at the people
[06:02.000 --> 06:04.000]  and they look at the way they talk
[06:04.000 --> 06:06.000]  and you kind of like squint your eye a little bit,
[06:06.000 --> 06:08.000]  you're like, yeah, that's really what's kind of,
[06:08.000 --> 06:10.000]  you know, on the other parts as well
[06:10.000 --> 06:11.000]  because they have a good-paying job
[06:11.000 --> 06:14.000]  and they like helping people and they like open source
[06:14.000 --> 06:16.000]  and it's helping their business.
[06:16.000 --> 06:19.000]  There's a whole bunch of things all going at the same time.
[06:19.000 --> 06:20.000]  They enjoy learning.
[06:20.000 --> 06:22.000]  There's just a whole bunch of stuff.
[06:22.000 --> 06:24.000]  And actually, this comes out of a book from,
[06:24.000 --> 06:27.000]  I think, the 70s, the Mythical Man Month, right?
[06:27.000 --> 06:30.000]  So, yeah, we're going way, way back here
[06:30.000 --> 06:35.000]  in terms of understanding why programming is interesting.
[06:35.000 --> 06:38.000]  But we're kind of, I feel, as open source people
[06:38.000 --> 06:40.000]  and, of course, the postgres person,
[06:40.000 --> 06:45.000]  we're kind of, there's a term in English,
[06:45.000 --> 06:47.000]  you know, you're running on all cylinders.
[06:47.000 --> 06:49.000]  All of you are, you have an engine
[06:49.000 --> 06:53.000]  and all of the cylinders are working in the same way
[06:53.000 --> 06:56.000]  in a uniform fashion for the same purpose.
[06:56.000 --> 06:58.000]  And that's kind of what we have here
[06:58.000 --> 07:00.000]  and that's kind of what we have here.
[07:00.000 --> 07:03.000]  So what I'm saying is that to build open source projects,
[07:03.000 --> 07:06.000]  you're not going to open with these things,
[07:06.000 --> 07:09.000]  but be aware that these are aspects
[07:09.000 --> 07:11.000]  and aspects that you're going to attract different people
[07:11.000 --> 07:13.000]  who have different focuses
[07:13.000 --> 07:16.000]  and different things that motivate them.
[07:16.000 --> 07:18.000]  Okay?
[07:18.000 --> 07:21.000]  Let's talk a little bit about management.
[07:21.000 --> 07:23.000]  Obviously, managing an open source project
[07:23.000 --> 07:25.000]  is incredibly complicated.
[07:25.000 --> 07:27.000]  Having done it for so long
[07:27.000 --> 07:32.000]  and having done it really when open source was much smaller,
[07:32.000 --> 07:35.000]  obviously communication is a key aspect,
[07:35.000 --> 07:38.000]  the ability to send free, in fact, you know,
[07:38.000 --> 07:41.000]  email, we didn't have chat back then, really,
[07:41.000 --> 07:44.000]  but the ability to send communication freely
[07:44.000 --> 07:48.000]  across the globe and harness the capabilities
[07:48.000 --> 07:50.000]  of people who are very far away from me
[07:50.000 --> 07:53.000]  is incredibly important.
[07:53.000 --> 07:55.000]  But you're all going to have issues
[07:55.000 --> 07:57.000]  with just being able to communicate
[07:57.000 --> 07:59.000]  potentially with email.
[07:59.000 --> 08:01.000]  You may not meet the people that you're working with.
[08:01.000 --> 08:03.000]  You have travel distance challenges.
[08:03.000 --> 08:05.000]  You have time zone distance challenges.
[08:05.000 --> 08:09.000]  When I was working on the port of Postgres to Windows,
[08:09.000 --> 08:12.000]  I had one person in Stockholm
[08:12.000 --> 08:14.000]  who's actually at the conference
[08:14.000 --> 08:17.000]  and another person in Sydney, Australia.
[08:17.000 --> 08:20.000]  So based on their availability,
[08:20.000 --> 08:22.000]  I would wake up in the morning
[08:22.000 --> 08:27.000]  and I would work with the person in Stockholm
[08:27.000 --> 08:31.000]  because he would prefer to work in his evening time.
[08:31.000 --> 08:34.000]  And then I would kind of go through the day
[08:34.000 --> 08:37.000]  and then at night I would work with the person in Sydney
[08:37.000 --> 08:40.000]  because that person liked to work in their daytime.
[08:40.000 --> 08:43.000]  So I had this weird thing where I'd worked really hard
[08:43.000 --> 08:46.000]  from like 7 to 9 in the morning
[08:46.000 --> 08:49.000]  and like from 10 to midnight.
[08:49.000 --> 08:54.000]  And the rest of the day was kind of like, yeah.
[08:54.000 --> 08:56.000]  The culture's going to be different.
[08:56.000 --> 08:59.000]  People are, different cultures are going to have different focuses.
[08:59.000 --> 09:01.000]  One of the things I've tried to do is to make,
[09:01.000 --> 09:04.000]  like sort of fit into the culture I'm visiting
[09:04.000 --> 09:06.000]  or the people I'm working with.
[09:06.000 --> 09:08.000]  Sometimes that's uncomfortable,
[09:08.000 --> 09:11.000]  but I think it's important.
[09:11.000 --> 09:14.000]  Language, obviously, that's a huge challenge.
[09:14.000 --> 09:16.000]  You know, I'm speaking in English.
[09:16.000 --> 09:18.000]  You're understanding English.
[09:18.000 --> 09:20.000]  But I realize, A,
[09:20.000 --> 09:22.000]  I'm not sure how successful I would have been
[09:22.000 --> 09:25.000]  if I had to do everything in French or Flemish or German.
[09:25.000 --> 09:28.000]  I don't know if I would have been capable
[09:28.000 --> 09:30.000]  of being the communicator I am
[09:30.000 --> 09:34.000]  if I had to go learn another language to be involved, right?
[09:34.000 --> 09:37.000]  How can we bridge that gap?
[09:37.000 --> 09:39.000]  I feel I'm very lucky and blessed to have,
[09:39.000 --> 09:41.000]  to be able to speak in English
[09:41.000 --> 09:43.000]  and you have to understand English,
[09:43.000 --> 09:45.000]  but that's not everybody.
[09:45.000 --> 09:47.000]  And how can we work with people
[09:47.000 --> 09:49.000]  who have trouble learning languages
[09:49.000 --> 09:52.000]  or just don't have the opportunity to learn languages?
[09:52.000 --> 09:55.000]  And how can we show that we value their contributions
[09:55.000 --> 09:58.000]  and we want them to be part of our community
[09:58.000 --> 10:00.000]  and how to, that's,
[10:00.000 --> 10:02.000]  I can have a whole talk just on that,
[10:02.000 --> 10:04.000]  you can imagine.
[10:04.000 --> 10:08.000]  Funding, I'll talk about that in a minute.
[10:08.000 --> 10:11.000]  Communication, so I've gotten,
[10:11.000 --> 10:13.000]  I'm pretty good at that.
[10:13.000 --> 10:15.000]  One of the people, one of our community members said,
[10:15.000 --> 10:17.000]  you know, for, early on they said
[10:17.000 --> 10:23.000]  to do, to get new people in the community
[10:23.000 --> 10:25.000]  we just need Bruce Momchin to tell them
[10:25.000 --> 10:28.000]  because I used to call people just in the middle of the day
[10:28.000 --> 10:31.000]  and talk to them about whatever they wanted to talk about
[10:31.000 --> 10:33.000]  who are regular community members.
[10:33.000 --> 10:35.000]  And I may be calling Germany,
[10:35.000 --> 10:37.000]  I may be calling, you know,
[10:37.000 --> 10:40.000]  the other side of the country, the United States,
[10:40.000 --> 10:43.000]  but that personal contact
[10:43.000 --> 10:45.000]  meant a lot.
[10:45.000 --> 10:47.000]  I care about what you're doing,
[10:47.000 --> 10:49.000]  I want to know you,
[10:49.000 --> 10:51.000]  I don't necessarily want to know what you're doing
[10:51.000 --> 10:53.000]  for the community, I want to know you as you.
[10:53.000 --> 10:55.000]  And if you want to do something for the community,
[10:55.000 --> 10:57.000]  that's fine, but that's not my focus, okay.
[10:57.000 --> 10:59.000]  When I go to visit and I travel quite a bit,
[10:59.000 --> 11:01.000]  maybe 30 some events a year,
[11:01.000 --> 11:05.000]  I'm not there to tell you about our software.
[11:05.000 --> 11:08.000]  I'm not here to tell you about my software either, right.
[11:08.000 --> 11:11.000]  I am here to get to know you,
[11:11.000 --> 11:14.000]  I am here to understand how we can help you
[11:14.000 --> 11:16.000]  and how we can work together
[11:16.000 --> 11:18.000]  in whatever you feel you want to work on.
[11:18.000 --> 11:20.000]  But I don't have an agenda,
[11:20.000 --> 11:24.000]  my employer fortunately doesn't have an agenda for me,
[11:24.000 --> 11:27.000]  so I'm basically, my title is evangelist
[11:27.000 --> 11:30.000]  and Postgres evangelist or open source evangelist,
[11:30.000 --> 11:32.000]  whatever you want to call it,
[11:32.000 --> 11:34.000]  I am not here to sell you to use anything,
[11:34.000 --> 11:37.000]  I'm not even here to tell you to use Postgres, right.
[11:37.000 --> 11:40.000]  I remember I was in, I was in,
[11:40.000 --> 11:44.000]  Sri Lanka once and somebody held up his hand and said,
[11:44.000 --> 11:46.000]  why would I use Postgres instead of MySQL?
[11:46.000 --> 11:48.000]  This was like 20 years ago.
[11:48.000 --> 11:50.000]  And I said, I don't know.
[11:50.000 --> 11:52.000]  Maybe, I don't know.
[11:52.000 --> 11:54.000]  It's not, I said, if you want to use it fine,
[11:54.000 --> 11:56.000]  if you don't want to use it fine.
[11:56.000 --> 11:58.000]  I'm not here to tell you,
[11:58.000 --> 12:00.000]  I'm not here,
[12:00.000 --> 12:02.000]  if you wonder why it has some features you might like,
[12:02.000 --> 12:04.000]  yeah, I can talk about that,
[12:04.000 --> 12:06.000]  but I'm not here to convince you.
[12:06.000 --> 12:09.000]  I am here to get you involved if you want to be involved.
[12:09.000 --> 12:12.000]  Instant messaging, I've actually found it to be really
[12:12.000 --> 12:15.000]  almost better sometimes in the phone now,
[12:15.000 --> 12:18.000]  because everyone's on, typically Telegram is huge.
[12:18.000 --> 12:19.000]  If you're not using Telegram,
[12:19.000 --> 12:22.000]  that's usually what I use for Europe, Russia.
[12:22.000 --> 12:25.000]  A lot, Asia's a little harder.
[12:25.000 --> 12:29.000]  You know, there's WeChat in China and
[12:29.000 --> 12:33.000]  I'm not sure I do a whole lot of chatting with Japan or Korea.
[12:33.000 --> 12:35.000]  I have a couple of Korean guys on Telegram,
[12:35.000 --> 12:36.000]  now that I think of it.
[12:36.000 --> 12:40.000]  Yeah, I mean Google Chat and we don't do too much with Facebook
[12:40.000 --> 12:43.000]  or at least I don't, I'm sure some of my people do,
[12:43.000 --> 12:46.000]  but being able to just chat somebody and say,
[12:46.000 --> 12:48.000]  hey, did you look at this or how you're doing
[12:48.000 --> 12:51.000]  or did this problem in your country cause you a problem
[12:51.000 --> 12:54.000]  or how you're feeling or,
[12:54.000 --> 12:57.000]  wow, that was an amazing email you sent
[12:57.000 --> 12:59.000]  or I loved that patch you did.
[12:59.000 --> 13:03.000]  These little things, it doesn't cost you anything.
[13:03.000 --> 13:06.000]  I'm not sending them $100, I'm just talking to them
[13:06.000 --> 13:08.000]  and I'm saying, you did a great job.
[13:08.000 --> 13:11.000]  I was down there at the Postgres booth
[13:11.000 --> 13:12.000]  just before I came up here.
[13:12.000 --> 13:14.000]  I said, this booth looks great.
[13:14.000 --> 13:17.000]  And I said, the dev room we have looks fantastic.
[13:17.000 --> 13:20.000]  We got a Postgres banner out front of the building.
[13:20.000 --> 13:22.000]  There's a banner right near the entrance to the room.
[13:22.000 --> 13:25.000]  We've got people in blue vests that say elephant herder
[13:25.000 --> 13:28.000]  on the back that are sort of helping people get into the room.
[13:28.000 --> 13:31.000]  And I'm like, we look like a million bucks here.
[13:31.000 --> 13:34.000]  I don't know what you guys are doing, this is great.
[13:34.000 --> 13:37.000]  Didn't cost me anything, but they did a lot of work.
[13:37.000 --> 13:38.000]  Somebody had to make those vests.
[13:38.000 --> 13:40.000]  These people are volunteering their time.
[13:40.000 --> 13:41.000]  Somebody had to bring the banners.
[13:41.000 --> 13:43.000]  They got to put them in their car and bring them here.
[13:43.000 --> 13:45.000]  Nothing worse than doing something
[13:45.000 --> 13:47.000]  and have nobody care about it.
[13:47.000 --> 13:50.000]  There's a lot of people who do stuff and nobody cares.
[13:50.000 --> 13:53.000]  Nobody, even if people appreciate it,
[13:53.000 --> 13:55.000]  nobody tells them they appreciate it.
[13:55.000 --> 13:57.000]  It does not cost you anything to tell somebody
[13:57.000 --> 13:59.000]  you appreciate what they do.
[13:59.000 --> 14:01.000]  It doesn't diminish you.
[14:01.000 --> 14:03.000]  It doesn't make you look foolish.
[14:03.000 --> 14:05.000]  They're probably going to thank you
[14:05.000 --> 14:07.000]  and it's going to mean a lot to them.
[14:07.000 --> 14:10.000]  That's a key aspect of building any type of community,
[14:10.000 --> 14:13.000]  particularly a community where nobody gets paid.
[14:13.000 --> 14:17.000]  I mean, I know this sounds like obvious,
[14:17.000 --> 14:20.000]  but a lot of people don't do it.
[14:20.000 --> 14:24.000]  And that's my soapbox.
[14:24.000 --> 14:30.000]  Yeah, I'm sorry about that.
[14:30.000 --> 14:32.000]  I travel a lot and there's a lot of people
[14:32.000 --> 14:34.000]  who help me get to where I am
[14:34.000 --> 14:36.000]  and help me get fine things
[14:36.000 --> 14:40.000]  and help me in the hotels and airports and stuff.
[14:40.000 --> 14:42.000]  I say, thank you. Thank you for helping me.
[14:42.000 --> 14:43.000]  Thank you for working on Sunday.
[14:43.000 --> 14:45.000]  I know you'd rather be home.
[14:45.000 --> 14:49.000]  I think it makes a big difference.
[14:49.000 --> 14:51.000]  It's a mind change.
[14:51.000 --> 14:53.000]  It's a mind change of what type of person you want to be.
[14:53.000 --> 14:55.000]  It's not just an open source.
[14:55.000 --> 14:57.000]  It's basically what type of person you want to be.
[14:57.000 --> 14:59.000]  A grateful person who thanks others for helping them
[14:59.000 --> 15:01.000]  or you just want to worry about yourself
[15:01.000 --> 15:02.000]  and just get your thing done
[15:02.000 --> 15:04.000]  and whatever happens to those other people who helped you.
[15:04.000 --> 15:06.000]  Yeah, right?
[15:06.000 --> 15:07.000]  A lot of people that way,
[15:07.000 --> 15:10.000]  but you're not going to be a leader if you're that way.
[15:10.000 --> 15:12.000]  That's not the type of leader.
[15:12.000 --> 15:13.000]  In fact, there's a really interesting,
[15:13.000 --> 15:15.000]  I go to a lot of leader conferences
[15:15.000 --> 15:19.000]  and there's basically seven, six type of leaders.
[15:19.000 --> 15:21.000]  There's like the innovative leader,
[15:21.000 --> 15:23.000]  there's the managerial leader,
[15:23.000 --> 15:26.000]  there's the sort of organizational leader,
[15:26.000 --> 15:30.000]  and one of them is probably the most important for open source
[15:30.000 --> 15:32.000]  is the servant leader.
[15:32.000 --> 15:37.000]  The leader who is a servant to the people who report to them
[15:37.000 --> 15:41.000]  and wants the best to happen to everyone who's reporting to them.
[15:41.000 --> 15:43.000]  That's the type of leader you have to be an open source
[15:43.000 --> 15:45.000]  because you have no money.
[15:45.000 --> 15:47.000]  You have no control over these people.
[15:47.000 --> 15:50.000]  They are helping you out of their own voluntary
[15:50.000 --> 15:52.000]  and if they stop doing it, there's nothing you can do.
[15:52.000 --> 15:56.000]  And a lot of management focuses on rewarding people
[15:56.000 --> 15:58.000]  and paying them and stuff,
[15:58.000 --> 16:02.000]  but honestly, servant leader for open source,
[16:02.000 --> 16:03.000]  you can search for it.
[16:03.000 --> 16:04.000]  There's a lot of talks about it.
[16:04.000 --> 16:06.000]  It's actually really interesting.
[16:06.000 --> 16:08.000]  One of the things I found in terms of conferences,
[16:08.000 --> 16:10.000]  and this is a good example,
[16:10.000 --> 16:15.000]  I travel about 90 days a year when COVID isn't happening
[16:15.000 --> 16:22.000]  and I found that going to somebody's country
[16:22.000 --> 16:24.000]  and spending time with them
[16:24.000 --> 16:26.000]  and staying an extra day after the conference
[16:26.000 --> 16:28.000]  and just hanging out with them
[16:28.000 --> 16:32.000]  and doing whatever they want to do is gold.
[16:32.000 --> 16:33.000]  The conference itself,
[16:33.000 --> 16:35.000]  yeah, okay, people hear me talk
[16:35.000 --> 16:37.000]  and I'm talking about Postgres features
[16:37.000 --> 16:38.000]  and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[16:38.000 --> 16:40.000]  Okay, yeah, maybe I'm good at that
[16:40.000 --> 16:43.000]  or maybe they can see my slides online
[16:43.000 --> 16:44.000]  and it's not the same maybe,
[16:44.000 --> 16:48.000]  but a lot of what I do is not just peeking to small groups
[16:48.000 --> 16:51.000]  but spending time with individuals in their countries,
[16:51.000 --> 16:53.000]  just doing whatever they want to do.
[16:53.000 --> 16:55.000]  Hey, let's go to the park.
[16:55.000 --> 16:56.000]  Let's go to the zoo.
[16:56.000 --> 16:58.000]  Let's show me something interesting
[16:58.000 --> 17:01.000]  and it's unbelievable some of the stuff I've seen
[17:01.000 --> 17:03.000]  by just asking somebody, hey,
[17:03.000 --> 17:05.000]  I'm here for an extra day after the conference.
[17:05.000 --> 17:07.000]  If you want to do anything, let me know.
[17:07.000 --> 17:10.000]  And you don't know what's going to happen to you.
[17:10.000 --> 17:13.000]  And honestly, it's a little scary.
[17:13.000 --> 17:15.000]  You'll notice I have shoes on
[17:15.000 --> 17:18.000]  but they actually have high-top shoes
[17:18.000 --> 17:20.000]  because a lot of times when I'm traveling,
[17:20.000 --> 17:23.000]  I don't know what climb I'm going to be going up.
[17:23.000 --> 17:24.000]  Particularly in Russia,
[17:24.000 --> 17:26.000]  I seem to be ending up on the top of a mountain
[17:26.000 --> 17:31.000]  or in a forest or covered in snow
[17:31.000 --> 17:35.000]  or just places I never would have thought I'd go.
[17:35.000 --> 17:37.000]  But again, I have to be flexible.
[17:37.000 --> 17:39.000]  I can't be this sort of like, oh, I'm scared.
[17:39.000 --> 17:42.000]  Anyway, it's actually kind of crazy
[17:42.000 --> 17:45.000]  and that investment, that investment pays back.
[17:45.000 --> 17:47.000]  It really does.
[17:51.000 --> 17:54.000]  One of the issues I've had is, yeah,
[17:54.000 --> 17:59.000]  email's nice, talking to somebody on chat is better.
[17:59.000 --> 18:02.000]  Talking to somebody by voice is better than that.
[18:02.000 --> 18:06.000]  Going to them is the best, right?
[18:06.000 --> 18:10.000]  So I'll tell you a story and surely you're here or you left?
[18:10.000 --> 18:12.000]  Surely you're here? No.
[18:12.000 --> 18:14.000]  So I have the shoes right there.
[18:14.000 --> 18:17.000]  So in 2000, I want to say three,
[18:17.000 --> 18:19.000]  I sure used to work for Oskon.
[18:19.000 --> 18:22.000]  I went to Oskon in San Diego.
[18:22.000 --> 18:24.000]  I fly out there.
[18:24.000 --> 18:26.000]  I didn't travel very much at that point.
[18:26.000 --> 18:30.000]  So I fly out to San Diego and it was in a hotel right on the water
[18:30.000 --> 18:33.000]  and I had a tutorial and a talk.
[18:33.000 --> 18:36.000]  So I gave my tutorial, it was probably like 40 people there
[18:36.000 --> 18:38.000]  and then I gave my talk the next day
[18:38.000 --> 18:40.000]  and there's like 30 people there.
[18:40.000 --> 18:43.000]  And I'm like, okay, so I talked to like 70 people
[18:43.000 --> 18:46.000]  and I'm on the plane flying home and I'm like,
[18:46.000 --> 18:48.000]  I was a waste of time.
[18:48.000 --> 18:50.000]  So I sent an email, thousands of people see it.
[18:50.000 --> 18:52.000]  I just flew across the country,
[18:52.000 --> 18:54.000]  spent like four days, five days,
[18:54.000 --> 18:56.000]  like to talk to 70 people.
[18:56.000 --> 18:59.000]  I'm telling my wife, we're not doing the same one.
[18:59.000 --> 19:01.000]  It's 2003.
[19:01.000 --> 19:04.000]  I think I've traveled like 1200 days since then,
[19:04.000 --> 19:08.000]  but anyway, the stats are on my website.
[19:08.000 --> 19:12.000]  What I found out is the next week when I was looking
[19:12.000 --> 19:15.000]  at the Postgres email list, there was a lot of activity
[19:15.000 --> 19:17.000]  that wasn't there the week that I left.
[19:17.000 --> 19:19.000]  Before Oskon, the week after Oskon,
[19:19.000 --> 19:21.000]  I had a lot more activity after the week
[19:21.000 --> 19:25.000]  and what I realized was the people I had lunch with
[19:25.000 --> 19:31.000]  at Oskon were now the people who were actively working in Postgres.
[19:31.000 --> 19:33.000]  I don't know how it happened.
[19:33.000 --> 19:35.000]  I don't know what magic words I said.
[19:35.000 --> 19:36.000]  Who knows?
[19:36.000 --> 19:38.000]  But the point is it wasn't unbelievable
[19:38.000 --> 19:40.000]  and sure it was the people in my talk.
[19:40.000 --> 19:42.000]  I think it was the people I talked to at lunch.
[19:42.000 --> 19:44.000]  I talked to them.
[19:44.000 --> 19:45.000]  I got to know them.
[19:45.000 --> 19:47.000]  I talked about, I guess I must have said something
[19:47.000 --> 19:49.000]  about Postgres or they asked me something about Postgres.
[19:49.000 --> 19:52.000]  I talked about, and all of a sudden we were going.
[19:52.000 --> 19:55.000]  And I don't know, Magnus Haagender,
[19:55.000 --> 19:58.000]  who was actually one of the core team members as well,
[19:58.000 --> 20:01.000]  he's here, and I went to a conference early on,
[20:01.000 --> 20:06.000]  it was in 2004 in, it was in Denmark,
[20:06.000 --> 20:07.000]  style Copenhagen.
[20:07.000 --> 20:08.000]  Yeah, I have my clock right here.
[20:08.000 --> 20:09.000]  I'm good.
[20:09.000 --> 20:10.000]  Away to Copenhagen.
[20:10.000 --> 20:13.000]  And again, it was a very early trip.
[20:13.000 --> 20:15.000]  I remember flying.
[20:15.000 --> 20:19.000]  It was a crazy flight out of JFK in the snow.
[20:19.000 --> 20:22.000]  I remember arriving and I don't know.
[20:22.000 --> 20:24.000]  I talked to the guy, it was Magnus.
[20:24.000 --> 20:25.000]  I don't know.
[20:25.000 --> 20:26.000]  I don't even know what Magnus meant.
[20:26.000 --> 20:29.000]  I didn't know that Magnus was a name
[20:29.000 --> 20:31.000]  because I'm from the United States.
[20:31.000 --> 20:34.000]  So I'm talking to him and he's talking to me about stuff
[20:34.000 --> 20:35.000]  and okay, whatever.
[20:35.000 --> 20:36.000]  And I talked to a bunch of other people.
[20:36.000 --> 20:38.000]  And then I came back from Copenhagen,
[20:38.000 --> 20:40.000]  all of a sudden Magnus is involved
[20:40.000 --> 20:42.000]  and he's working an email with us.
[20:42.000 --> 20:43.000]  I'm like, oh, this is great.
[20:43.000 --> 20:45.000]  Little did I know, he would end up being
[20:45.000 --> 20:47.000]  the president of Postgres Europe
[20:47.000 --> 20:49.000]  and a core team member.
[20:49.000 --> 20:50.000]  You don't know.
[20:50.000 --> 20:52.000]  You don't know who you're going to talk to.
[20:52.000 --> 20:56.000]  So I will tell you travel is time consuming.
[20:56.000 --> 20:58.000]  There's only a few people in any one location
[20:58.000 --> 21:01.000]  but if you can do it and you have the time
[21:01.000 --> 21:06.000]  to invest in a long-term goal, it pays off tremendously.
[21:06.000 --> 21:11.000]  Time zones, obviously we all work in multiple time zones.
[21:11.000 --> 21:12.000]  I've always worked from home.
[21:12.000 --> 21:14.000]  So I don't have it nine to five.
[21:14.000 --> 21:16.000]  My days have always been very long.
[21:16.000 --> 21:19.000]  So I work, you know, I kind of, you know,
[21:19.000 --> 21:23.000]  I work in the morning and then I work kind of through the day
[21:23.000 --> 21:25.000]  but I may take two hours off,
[21:25.000 --> 21:26.000]  three hours off in the middle of the day
[21:26.000 --> 21:29.000]  to go shopping or go visit somebody or go to church.
[21:29.000 --> 21:30.000]  I don't know, whatever.
[21:30.000 --> 21:32.000]  And I never really worried about it
[21:32.000 --> 21:35.000]  because the work's always there, right?
[21:35.000 --> 21:39.000]  And at night the people in Asia are awake, right?
[21:39.000 --> 21:43.000]  And in the morning, so it's actually kind of a long term.
[21:43.000 --> 21:44.000]  Having a cell phone is nice
[21:44.000 --> 21:47.000]  because you can communicate when you're not home
[21:47.000 --> 21:49.000]  but it is a 24-hour cycle, right?
[21:49.000 --> 21:51.000]  There's something happening all the time
[21:51.000 --> 21:54.000]  and that is a little hard to get used to.
[21:54.000 --> 21:57.000]  Culture, show interest in other cultures.
[21:57.000 --> 22:00.000]  Don't be the person who, oh, I don't do it that way
[22:00.000 --> 22:02.000]  or oh, that's wrong that you do it that way.
[22:02.000 --> 22:07.000]  We had a case where there was an inappropriate something
[22:07.000 --> 22:09.000]  at a conference in Russia years ago
[22:09.000 --> 22:12.000]  and I had to call somebody up in the middle of the night.
[22:12.000 --> 22:16.000]  I called him at his 1 a.m. and he answered the phone
[22:16.000 --> 22:19.000]  and I kind of talked to him about the issue
[22:19.000 --> 22:24.000]  and he was able to resolve it by the time everyone got up
[22:24.000 --> 22:25.000]  the next day, right?
[22:25.000 --> 22:29.000]  So again, I had that, I already had personal contact
[22:29.000 --> 22:30.000]  with that individual.
[22:30.000 --> 22:33.000]  That individual had already sent his daughter to live with me
[22:33.000 --> 22:35.000]  for a summer to learn English.
[22:35.000 --> 22:38.000]  So I knew him and his family very well
[22:38.000 --> 22:40.000]  and he answered my phone at 1 a.m.
[22:40.000 --> 22:42.000]  I said there's concern about this event,
[22:42.000 --> 22:44.000]  this thing that happened at the conference.
[22:44.000 --> 22:46.000]  I got all the information I need.
[22:46.000 --> 22:50.000]  I talked to the court committee and we handled it very cleanly.
[22:50.000 --> 22:55.000]  But again, I had already invested in that relationship
[22:55.000 --> 22:59.000]  long before I needed to call that person at 1 a.m.
[22:59.000 --> 23:03.000]  to get an answer so that things didn't get out of hand.
[23:03.000 --> 23:05.000]  It turned out they didn't understand.
[23:05.000 --> 23:07.000]  This was part of the package they bought
[23:07.000 --> 23:10.000]  and we're like what country has a package like that?
[23:10.000 --> 23:12.000]  But whatever.
[23:12.000 --> 23:15.000]  You have to be culturally understanding sometimes.
[23:15.000 --> 23:18.000]  I spoke at a Russia conference in June
[23:18.000 --> 23:20.000]  and people were saying don't do that.
[23:20.000 --> 23:26.000]  Well, we don't discriminate against where somebody lives, right?
[23:26.000 --> 23:28.000]  So how do I do that?
[23:28.000 --> 23:30.000]  I start the talk and I said I want to say something
[23:30.000 --> 23:32.000]  before I talk about my material.
[23:32.000 --> 23:36.000]  I said I know it's a very hard time for people in Russia
[23:36.000 --> 23:41.000]  but it's an even harder time for people in Ukraine
[23:41.000 --> 23:43.000]  and the Ukrainians.
[23:43.000 --> 23:49.000]  But I said I work for a project that does not have boundaries
[23:49.000 --> 23:50.000]  between individuals.
[23:50.000 --> 23:52.000]  We don't discriminate on where somebody lives
[23:52.000 --> 23:54.000]  and it's in that spirit I'd like to talk to you today.
[23:54.000 --> 23:58.000]  I said the one sad thing is that I have been in Russia many times
[23:58.000 --> 24:02.000]  and I have and I said I'm sad to think it's going to be a long time
[24:02.000 --> 24:05.000]  till I can come back and see you again in Russia.
[24:05.000 --> 24:09.000]  And the feedback I got from them was they really appreciated me saying that.
[24:09.000 --> 24:11.000]  I was able to talk about Ukraine.
[24:11.000 --> 24:14.000]  I was able to talk about Russia at the same time
[24:14.000 --> 24:16.000]  and I think in a balanced way.
[24:16.000 --> 24:21.000]  And they appreciated somebody who was willing to talk about that.
[24:21.000 --> 24:26.000]  So again, I spent a lot of time thinking about what am I going to say to them
[24:26.000 --> 24:30.000]  and how am I going to make sure that I say the right words.
[24:30.000 --> 24:36.000]  But they appreciated it and I continue to have a regular dialogue with them.
[24:36.000 --> 24:40.000]  And we have a lot of developers in Russia still who continue to work on our project.
[24:40.000 --> 24:45.000]  We don't discriminate against them basically.
[24:45.000 --> 24:47.000]  Language can be an issue.
[24:47.000 --> 24:51.000]  We do have some cases where we try and do per language.
[24:51.000 --> 24:53.000]  Remember I talked about the language barrier.
[24:53.000 --> 24:55.000]  We have a French email list.
[24:55.000 --> 24:58.000]  We have a Spanish email list.
[24:58.000 --> 25:00.000]  We have a Japanese email list.
[25:00.000 --> 25:01.000]  A Chinese email list.
[25:01.000 --> 25:05.000]  There's a whole bunch of per language lists to get people started.
[25:05.000 --> 25:08.000]  We have per language, I believe it's telegram channels.
[25:08.000 --> 25:10.000]  I know we have a big Russian telegram channel.
[25:10.000 --> 25:12.000]  I don't remember what other languages we have.
[25:12.000 --> 25:15.000]  I know we have Slack channels for particular languages.
[25:15.000 --> 25:18.000]  We have obviously conferences all over the world.
[25:18.000 --> 25:20.000]  Some of them are in native languages.
[25:20.000 --> 25:22.000]  Some of them are in English.
[25:22.000 --> 25:24.000]  Some of them are both or translated.
[25:24.000 --> 25:27.000]  So when I go to Japan, there's typically a translator there.
[25:27.000 --> 25:31.000]  When I go to Russia, often there's a translator in China as well.
[25:31.000 --> 25:32.000]  So again, depending.
[25:32.000 --> 25:36.000]  We have different documentation in different languages too.
[25:36.000 --> 25:38.000]  Funding, we don't have any.
[25:38.000 --> 25:40.000]  So just get over that.
[25:40.000 --> 25:43.000]  Hopefully you'll find a company like mine
[25:43.000 --> 25:46.000]  who is worried about the health of the community
[25:46.000 --> 25:48.000]  as willing to invest in somebody as crazy as me
[25:48.000 --> 25:52.000]  who just says these things and goes around and does whatever.
[25:52.000 --> 25:56.000]  And the reason is because they're investing
[25:56.000 --> 25:58.000]  so that if there's a problem,
[25:58.000 --> 26:02.000]  he already knows everyone who can get the problem fixed real cleanly.
[26:02.000 --> 26:05.000]  And that's again one of the investments.
[26:05.000 --> 26:08.000]  In the development process, we try and involve everybody.
[26:08.000 --> 26:10.000]  Find each person's motivation.
[26:10.000 --> 26:13.000]  Remember, different people are motivated by different things.
[26:13.000 --> 26:15.000]  So figure out what they're motivated in
[26:15.000 --> 26:19.000]  and try and put them in a position where they're going to be strong.
[26:19.000 --> 26:22.000]  I don't know how to put this, but none of us is perfect.
[26:22.000 --> 26:25.000]  We all have problems, things we do wrong.
[26:25.000 --> 26:27.000]  So I try and look at a person and say,
[26:27.000 --> 26:30.000]  what is your strength and what are the weaknesses?
[26:30.000 --> 26:33.000]  How can I put them in a place where your strengths are going to shine?
[26:33.000 --> 26:36.000]  I kind of have somebody backstopping the weaknesses
[26:36.000 --> 26:39.000]  so that it doesn't become a problem.
[26:39.000 --> 26:41.000]  Reach out to individuals.
[26:41.000 --> 26:43.000]  Again, that personal contact is important.
[26:43.000 --> 26:45.000]  Harvest the strength of the team.
[26:45.000 --> 26:47.000]  There's always somebody smaller than you.
[26:47.000 --> 26:48.000]  I learned that early on.
[26:48.000 --> 26:50.000]  There was a guy in Krasnoyarsk, Russia,
[26:50.000 --> 26:53.000]  who was so smart early on,
[26:53.000 --> 26:55.000]  not only could not answer his questions,
[26:55.000 --> 26:57.000]  I didn't understand why you'd ask him a question.
[26:57.000 --> 26:59.000]  So I'd say, I don't know the answer,
[26:59.000 --> 27:01.000]  but why you're asking the question is like,
[27:01.000 --> 27:03.000]  oh, okay, I understand it,
[27:03.000 --> 27:06.000]  but now I at least understand why you asked the question.
[27:06.000 --> 27:09.000]  Produce work that people are proud of.
[27:09.000 --> 27:11.000]  I'm not always Mr. Sunshine sometimes.
[27:11.000 --> 27:14.000]  If I'm embarrassed by something,
[27:14.000 --> 27:16.000]  my community members will hear about it.
[27:16.000 --> 27:18.000]  In fact, somebody just told me today,
[27:18.000 --> 27:21.000]  I railed against how a website looked.
[27:21.000 --> 27:24.000]  It was kind of stuck in an ugly years ago in Dallas.
[27:24.000 --> 27:27.000]  You remembered where it was and what year it was,
[27:27.000 --> 27:29.000]  and he said you didn't like the website
[27:29.000 --> 27:31.000]  and you basically said you were going to,
[27:31.000 --> 27:34.000]  you like yell at everybody and he said,
[27:34.000 --> 27:37.000]  I don't care what you do to the website, do something.
[27:37.000 --> 27:39.000]  Because we were stuck and we couldn't,
[27:39.000 --> 27:41.000]  we were stuck trying to look for something perfect.
[27:41.000 --> 27:46.000]  I said, just do something and that kind of got us over the hill.
[27:46.000 --> 27:49.000]  Produce clean code.
[27:49.000 --> 27:51.000]  Remember, we're not paying people to code,
[27:51.000 --> 27:53.000]  so we better make it easy.
[27:53.000 --> 27:56.000]  And finally, manage the team.
[27:56.000 --> 27:58.000]  Lead by example, not from authority.
[27:58.000 --> 27:59.000]  This is a big thing.
[27:59.000 --> 28:01.000]  I didn't realize it myself,
[28:01.000 --> 28:03.000]  but if the leadership,
[28:03.000 --> 28:07.000]  the leadership really has an unspoken control
[28:07.000 --> 28:10.000]  over how the project and how the team works.
[28:10.000 --> 28:12.000]  If you have toxic leadership at the top,
[28:12.000 --> 28:15.000]  you're not going to have a well run team at the bottom.
[28:15.000 --> 28:18.000]  If you have a servant leadership at the top,
[28:18.000 --> 28:21.000]  the people underneath you will be servants
[28:21.000 --> 28:23.000]  to those below and so forth
[28:23.000 --> 28:25.000]  and will continue promoting people up and up
[28:25.000 --> 28:28.000]  into more powerful positions.
[28:28.000 --> 28:31.000]  That is absolutely a key aspect.
[28:31.000 --> 28:34.000]  I've been surprised at how well that works.
[28:34.000 --> 28:36.000]  Except failure gracefully, when I make mistakes,
[28:36.000 --> 28:38.000]  I'm like, I'm sorry.
[28:38.000 --> 28:41.000]  And when I say, I'm sorry, and I say I made a mistake,
[28:41.000 --> 28:44.000]  it opens the door for other people when they make mistakes
[28:44.000 --> 28:46.000]  to also say I made a mistake.
[28:46.000 --> 28:49.000]  Because if Bruce can say he was wrong about this thing
[28:49.000 --> 28:52.000]  and basically take the lumps on it,
[28:52.000 --> 28:55.000]  then, oh, I guess, look, it didn't hurt.
[28:55.000 --> 28:57.000]  I guess I can do that too.
[28:57.000 --> 29:00.000]  If I'm the type of person who ignores any mistake I make,
[29:00.000 --> 29:03.000]  then that's how other people are going to do it.
[29:03.000 --> 29:05.000]  So seek consensus.
[29:05.000 --> 29:07.000]  The post-christ community does that a lot.
[29:07.000 --> 29:10.000]  Okay, let me take some questions.
[29:10.000 --> 29:13.000]  I'm going to have one question.
[29:13.000 --> 29:18.000]  We have one minute for one question.
[29:18.000 --> 29:21.000]  Who would like to be our one question in our one minute?
[29:21.000 --> 29:25.000]  I see a hand, a lot.
[29:25.000 --> 29:27.000]  It's Ilya.
[29:27.000 --> 29:32.000]  She's going to give me an easy one, I'm sure.
[29:32.000 --> 29:33.000]  Hi, Bruce.
[29:33.000 --> 29:34.000]  Hey.
[29:34.000 --> 29:35.000]  So here's my question.
[29:35.000 --> 29:36.000]  How do you find balance?
[29:36.000 --> 29:38.000]  I mean, you said you take calls at 1 a.m.,
[29:38.000 --> 29:41.000]  you travel three months a year, blah, blah, blah.
[29:41.000 --> 29:42.000]  You have wife, you have children.
[29:42.000 --> 29:45.000]  How do you do that?
[29:45.000 --> 29:47.000]  Right, so the question is how do you find balance?
[29:47.000 --> 29:51.000]  Basically, you have to just accept your failures.
[29:51.000 --> 29:54.000]  You have to accept that I'm not going to be everywhere,
[29:54.000 --> 29:57.000]  that I'm not going to be able to fix every problem,
[29:57.000 --> 29:59.000]  I'm not going to be able to do everything.
[29:59.000 --> 30:01.000]  And you now rely on your leaders.
[30:01.000 --> 30:04.000]  So for example, a great example, when I'm here at the conference,
[30:04.000 --> 30:06.000]  I have no idea what's happening in the community.
[30:06.000 --> 30:11.000]  No idea, because I trust all of our people who have been working
[30:11.000 --> 30:14.000]  for years on this, so when I travel,
[30:14.000 --> 30:16.000]  I don't even bother reading the community email list.
[30:16.000 --> 30:18.000]  When I get back, I'll take a look at it,
[30:18.000 --> 30:20.000]  and you know, nothing bad happens when I'm gone.
[30:20.000 --> 30:23.000]  So what I've realized is not to be anxious about things,
[30:23.000 --> 30:26.000]  to trust the people who are part of your organization,
[30:26.000 --> 30:30.000]  to handle it, and by showing confidence in them,
[30:30.000 --> 30:32.000]  they become confident.
[30:32.000 --> 30:34.000]  If you show you're not confident then,
[30:34.000 --> 30:35.000]  they will not be confident.
[30:35.000 --> 30:37.000]  It's kind of natural.
[30:37.000 --> 30:38.000]  Thank you.
[30:38.000 --> 30:39.000]  Appreciate it.
[30:39.000 --> 30:46.000]  Thank you.