Detecting language using up to the first 30 seconds. Use `--language` to specify the language
Detected language: English
[00:00.000 --> 00:19.240]  We have Danny and Maximilian talking more about accessibility, so take it away.
[00:19.240 --> 00:20.240]  Thank you.
[00:20.240 --> 00:21.440]  Hello, everyone.
[00:21.440 --> 00:28.080]  We have this talk with lots of nice acronyms and we hope you enjoy it.
[00:28.080 --> 00:35.000]  We will talk about accessibility today and about how to make your web applications more
[00:35.000 --> 00:43.440]  accessible or with some easy tricks and make it accessible to everyone.
[00:43.440 --> 00:49.240]  And we are Maximilian and I'm Danny, we are from Deutsche Bahn, it's a German railway
[00:49.240 --> 00:59.480]  company and we are both working in frontends, working for web applications, yeah.
[00:59.480 --> 01:04.080]  So we want to start with a site from Bill Clinton.
[01:04.080 --> 01:09.360]  It says congratulations through the launch of the web accessibility initiative, an effort
[01:09.360 --> 01:14.560]  to ensure that people with disabilities have access to the Internet's worldwide web.
[01:14.560 --> 01:24.000]  And did someone of you guess from which year this site is?
[01:24.000 --> 01:25.000]  I would just give it.
[01:25.000 --> 01:32.240]  Okay, it's from 1997, so accessibility is not a very new topic, a very new thing.
[01:32.240 --> 01:35.080]  It was still there every time.
[01:35.080 --> 01:42.040]  And yeah, we want to start a little bit with the awareness of accessibility, why it matters.
[01:42.040 --> 01:48.200]  Then I will say something to some implementation things and then how you can ensure your application
[01:48.200 --> 01:49.200]  is accessible.
[01:49.200 --> 01:50.200]  Great.
[01:50.200 --> 01:53.240]  Thanks a lot, Danny.
[01:53.240 --> 01:59.480]  So first of all, accessibility, and we heard the talk by Mike, it was really amazing to
[01:59.480 --> 02:04.720]  see so much, even also regarding Drupal and all of the open source CMS, for example, the
[02:04.720 --> 02:06.920]  development over there.
[02:06.920 --> 02:12.720]  But when we talk about accessibility, it's quite easy to say that it's only about a specific
[02:12.720 --> 02:17.880]  group in the end who would have disabilities and even also already said something about
[02:17.880 --> 02:20.840]  it, it's really about including all the people in there.
[02:20.840 --> 02:23.320]  This is the main paradigm in the end.
[02:23.320 --> 02:27.800]  But even also, it's us as developers who are bringing in the barriers, who are bringing
[02:27.800 --> 02:34.000]  in a nonresponsive layout in the end, who are bringing in something which doesn't work under
[02:34.000 --> 02:35.160]  different circumstances.
[02:35.160 --> 02:39.960]  So this is something that we even also want to dig a little bit more into detail today
[02:39.960 --> 02:46.120]  and show you some things regarding those aspects.
[02:46.120 --> 02:51.480]  So you might, again, you might think of blindness, first of all, but it's about so much more.
[02:51.480 --> 02:57.600]  It's about permanent disabilities, it's about temporary disabilities, and even also situational
[02:57.600 --> 02:59.440]  accessibility issues in the end.
[02:59.440 --> 03:04.000]  There might be, you might have, for example, you might be in a situation where you do have
[03:04.000 --> 03:09.560]  probably, for example, your child on your arm or where you do have only one arm, even
[03:09.560 --> 03:12.320]  also for controlling your device.
[03:12.320 --> 03:14.200]  It might be a light condition in the end.
[03:14.200 --> 03:19.600]  There are so many more things than just this one thing that we might think about quite
[03:19.600 --> 03:23.200]  easily in the very beginning.
[03:23.200 --> 03:29.160]  To come to the topic why it's even more important is it's a legal topic.
[03:29.160 --> 03:34.840]  There is the European Accessibility Act, who was enacted in 2019 even already, needs to
[03:34.840 --> 03:40.800]  be even also transferred to the law in each country in the European Union, in Germany,
[03:40.800 --> 03:41.800]  for example.
[03:41.800 --> 03:51.800]  It's even already lost since one year now, 2021, two years, sorry, 2021, but for example,
[03:51.800 --> 03:58.560]  they will only penalize this until the beginning of the year 2025, but it's similar to GDPR.
[03:58.560 --> 04:04.480]  We even also, like, we waited for a long time and didn't think it through, and so many companies
[04:04.480 --> 04:09.760]  only started to think about and to enact on this topic when it was quite near to the
[04:09.760 --> 04:15.560]  state in 2019, I'm sorry, with GDPR.
[04:15.560 --> 04:20.680]  To clarify things up a little bit about the structure, how it's being managed, how, especially
[04:20.680 --> 04:24.680]  for the web, and we're mainly talking about the web, there's obviously even also accessibility
[04:24.680 --> 04:31.880]  regarding applications about native development, so the structure is obviously in general,
[04:31.880 --> 04:42.040]  it's W3C, and they do have a web accessibility initiative, WAI, who's formulating those web
[04:42.040 --> 04:48.040]  content accessibility guidelines, so these are kind of some words that we're even also
[04:48.040 --> 04:51.720]  using in our presentation in the end.
[04:51.720 --> 04:56.720]  So all of these rules, all of these principles divide into four categories in the end.
[04:56.720 --> 05:03.160]  There are, I think, 60 or 70 principles who are divided into those four fields, so it's
[05:03.160 --> 05:13.240]  about perceivable, understandable, and robust criterias that you could test, for example,
[05:13.240 --> 05:18.880]  your website against, or that you could ensure the compliance of your web pages, of your
[05:18.880 --> 05:21.520]  website or web application against.
[05:21.520 --> 05:25.200]  And even also, those play up into three conformance levels.
[05:25.200 --> 05:27.160]  We've listed them over here.
[05:27.160 --> 05:32.640]  It's about that A is really the basis, and it should be ensured in all circumstances,
[05:32.640 --> 05:37.400]  like, for example, about providing alternative texts in the end for your images.
[05:37.400 --> 05:40.880]  This is probably quite a simple one.
[05:40.880 --> 05:46.000]  It's, and the other two criterias, this is about really dividing in between, for example,
[05:46.000 --> 05:52.800]  governance, who need, or governmental services in the end, who need to ensure that it's about
[05:52.800 --> 06:00.280]  these AAA criterias that need to be followed in the end, and, for example, for private
[06:00.280 --> 06:03.600]  companies it's most likely about AA that they need to follow.
[06:03.600 --> 06:10.160]  And all of those criterias are like structures in those conformance levels.
[06:10.160 --> 06:16.160]  Why isn't it important in open source projects, you most likely all know this image.
[06:16.160 --> 06:21.560]  It's always used in kind of the context of security, for example, but it's even also
[06:21.560 --> 06:22.560]  similar.
[06:22.560 --> 06:26.800]  I mean, accessibility is even also some kind of a quality attribute in the end, which is
[06:26.800 --> 06:35.760]  underlying and attribute on something that you could even also use for accessibility.
[06:35.760 --> 06:42.600]  So if you do have an inaccessible UI library, for example, or if there's something that
[06:42.600 --> 06:48.400]  is inaccessible in this UI library, it might lead to problems in so many more projects.
[06:48.400 --> 06:53.960]  And the general paradigm about this is if there's even only one accessibility issue
[06:53.960 --> 06:55.760]  on the website, it's inaccessible.
[06:55.760 --> 07:00.400]  It's not about the amount, it then is inaccessible, and that's very important in the end.
[07:00.400 --> 07:06.680]  You need to test it and you need to, for ensuring this, it should be inaccessible.
[07:06.680 --> 07:11.240]  And that's why it's so important, even also to test your stuff, but even also to contribute
[07:11.240 --> 07:16.560]  if you do find something on the Internet to contribute to those libraries.
[07:16.560 --> 07:23.560]  This might be groundwork for many other websites in the end.
[07:23.560 --> 07:29.120]  So just one simple commercial about us, about Deutsche Bahn.
[07:29.120 --> 07:32.760]  We even also do have a design system at Deutsche Bahn.
[07:32.760 --> 07:37.760]  And we obviously, in the very beginning, we started as Inner Source because it was kind
[07:37.760 --> 07:42.560]  of a small initiative, obviously you only have some developers, you have some designers
[07:42.560 --> 07:43.560]  over there.
[07:43.560 --> 07:47.080]  But then we thought about quite quickly to go Open Source, because from my point of
[07:47.080 --> 07:51.760]  view, I'm even also doing privately, developing some polyfills and that stuff.
[07:51.760 --> 07:56.960]  I think Open Source is one of the paradigms, it's about learning in public, isn't it?
[07:56.960 --> 08:05.400]  I mean, it's going out, it's talking to each other, it's about really getting feedback
[08:05.400 --> 08:06.400]  and that stuff.
[08:06.400 --> 08:12.240]  So we decided quite early to go Open Source and get feedback from the public, even also
[08:12.240 --> 08:15.400]  to get that information.
[08:15.400 --> 08:20.280]  So I'll lead over to Denny then for the implementation part.
[08:20.280 --> 08:21.440]  Thank you.
[08:21.440 --> 08:27.560]  So now we want to focus on what's important when implementing an application on your
[08:27.560 --> 08:30.560]  iLibrary, what's the most important thing?
[08:30.560 --> 08:37.200]  And the most important thing, the really most important thing is use semantic HTML.
[08:37.200 --> 08:44.880]  So that's really the most important thing, I can't say it often, so it's really, if you
[08:44.880 --> 08:53.120]  only use diffs, then you make things much more harder to bring in accessibility later.
[08:53.120 --> 08:57.120]  So to make your application accessible later, it's way harder.
[08:57.120 --> 09:04.000]  So it's easier to change the button style of a button than to bring in accessibility
[09:04.000 --> 09:07.960]  to a diff element.
[09:07.960 --> 09:12.520]  And a very big thing is that you use landmarks.
[09:12.520 --> 09:19.360]  So landmarks are used to structure your web page to big elements.
[09:19.360 --> 09:26.640]  So like a header, like a navigation, a site container, main part, and the landmarks are
[09:26.640 --> 09:32.120]  very important for screen readers to identify where is your structure of the site.
[09:32.120 --> 09:38.560]  So where is your navigation, where can I switch the sites, where is my main content?
[09:38.560 --> 09:44.320]  And this makes it really more easy for users of screen readers to find the content and
[09:44.320 --> 09:49.160]  to navigate between them.
[09:49.160 --> 09:51.720]  And another thing is the headlines.
[09:51.720 --> 09:56.640]  So when you use headlines, be sure they are in the right order.
[09:56.640 --> 10:04.320]  Don't leave out some levels of the headlines or mix the levels.
[10:04.320 --> 10:09.520]  So just don't make an H1 and after that an H5.
[10:09.520 --> 10:12.120]  So the headlines are like in a book.
[10:12.120 --> 10:17.920]  If you open a book and you have the index, so you can just, your web page should be structured
[10:17.920 --> 10:22.720]  like a book.
[10:22.720 --> 10:26.280]  And another thing are buttons and links.
[10:26.280 --> 10:33.000]  They're often, often people just use buttons and make on click handlers and the on click
[10:33.000 --> 10:37.040]  handler will navigate to another page, which isn't a good thing.
[10:37.040 --> 10:43.800]  So please use links to navigate to things and use buttons to do things, to make actions.
[10:43.800 --> 10:45.960]  And please don't use this.
[10:45.960 --> 10:52.840]  So never.
[10:52.840 --> 10:58.680]  Forms are also a great example where accessibility matters a lot.
[10:58.680 --> 11:08.520]  So you have separate elements in the structure of HTML for the label and for the input field,
[11:08.520 --> 11:14.080]  but you should link them together using the ID attribute and the for connection.
[11:14.080 --> 11:19.320]  And you also can use area attributes to give another hints.
[11:19.320 --> 11:27.880]  This is probably the sun, yeah, a great example of accessibility.
[11:27.880 --> 11:37.720]  So yeah, you can use descriptions for more hints which are read out by a screen reader
[11:37.720 --> 11:43.800]  to the users so that the users know, okay, this description is linked to this input field
[11:43.800 --> 11:47.000]  of my form.
[11:47.000 --> 11:53.520]  Yeah, and the attribute is also very important.
[11:53.520 --> 11:56.320]  It's not an art tag, by the way.
[11:56.320 --> 12:05.840]  So it's an art attribute and yeah, it should always, sorry, you should always use an art
[12:05.840 --> 12:11.000]  attribute to describe what's visible on an image.
[12:11.000 --> 12:18.000]  So it's very important that people who can't see an image that they know what it describes.
[12:18.000 --> 12:27.000]  So the only thing when you should use an empty art attribute is when you have just like a
[12:27.000 --> 12:29.040]  decorative image.
[12:29.040 --> 12:35.400]  Like you have a disk icon for a submit button and the submit button already shows that the
[12:35.400 --> 12:39.880]  text submit, then it doesn't make sense to have like more content.
[12:39.880 --> 12:47.800]  So yeah, but otherwise describe your images.
[12:47.800 --> 12:57.840]  So modal dialogs, also a great example, there are lots of UI libraries in the web which
[12:57.840 --> 13:04.840]  are not accessible and lots of UI libraries implement like modals from times where the
[13:04.840 --> 13:14.480]  browser didn't support the native dialog element and these libraries have a big issue because
[13:14.480 --> 13:23.600]  when a modal appears sometimes a screen reader will not notice there's a modal and will,
[13:23.600 --> 13:28.240]  so it will read out the content behind and that doesn't make it accessible.
[13:28.240 --> 13:29.920]  It's not good.
[13:29.920 --> 13:35.480]  So the native dialog element is a really good way to use and to make your application and
[13:35.480 --> 13:41.400]  especially modals accessible.
[13:41.400 --> 13:46.360]  And there are other cool things which are not only good for accessibility issues.
[13:46.360 --> 13:52.840]  As you can see this is a detailed summary element in HTML and it helps also because if you use
[13:52.840 --> 14:00.680]  like command F or control F on Windows and search for a term it will automatically expand
[14:00.680 --> 14:06.320]  and will show where's the content inside the summary, the details.
[14:06.320 --> 14:15.120]  So yeah, that's also a good example for semantic HTML elements.
[14:15.120 --> 14:18.840]  And there are other things like auto completion for data lists.
[14:18.840 --> 14:23.840]  So there are a lot of things that got more and more standardized and are available in
[14:23.840 --> 14:30.920]  HTML5 now and can be used by developers to implement which makes your application more
[14:30.920 --> 14:34.600]  accessible without using area attributes.
[14:34.600 --> 14:44.920]  So area attributes are a way to, it's like, if you don't find a semantic HTML element
[14:44.920 --> 14:52.760]  then you may have to use a diff and then you can think about do I need some area attribute.
[14:52.760 --> 15:00.000]  There are some area attributes which helps for making things that aren't natively accessible
[15:00.000 --> 15:02.400]  that helps to make them accessible.
[15:02.400 --> 15:11.720]  For example, if you have an area life attribute it helps to read out, if you like, have notifications
[15:11.720 --> 15:13.680]  on your site.
[15:13.680 --> 15:19.160]  When you get notified from a server or something a message appears then you have to find a
[15:19.160 --> 15:24.480]  way to tell the user there was some message occurs.
[15:24.480 --> 15:35.480]  So therefore area life can be used to read it out for screen reader users.
[15:35.480 --> 15:42.440]  And now may you asking how can I test easily that my application is accessible and I will
[15:42.440 --> 15:44.800]  try it over to Maximilian.
[15:44.800 --> 15:45.800]  Yeah, thanks.
[15:45.800 --> 15:46.800]  Thanks, Denny.
[15:46.800 --> 15:53.960]  So one thing that I'd like to quite quickly add to what you said, think of those HTML
[15:53.960 --> 15:58.560]  tags like little micro front ends that the browser delivers to the user without the need
[15:58.560 --> 16:01.400]  for JavaScript, it's there even already.
[16:01.400 --> 16:04.720]  We do have poly fills for most of these features even already.
[16:04.720 --> 16:10.880]  So use them and by stabilizing this stuff even also through the browser vendors we might
[16:10.880 --> 16:16.120]  get better features in, we might get better features even also in the future.
[16:16.120 --> 16:20.480]  Like for example on mobile devices you might get a different UI, you might get a different
[16:20.480 --> 16:24.760]  keyboard or even also what we've shown regarding details in summary.
[16:24.760 --> 16:30.240]  It might be something that the browser vendors then could innovate on and for example bring
[16:30.240 --> 16:34.520]  in this cool feature regarding site search.
[16:34.520 --> 16:38.280]  So QA in testing, we had this question previously regarding testing.
[16:38.280 --> 16:43.080]  I think one of the easiest things is really to use, let's say easiest things.
[16:43.080 --> 16:45.720]  You do have the keyboard in front of you most of the time.
[16:45.720 --> 16:53.720]  So you could use the keyboard, use the tab key to try to navigate in the application
[16:53.720 --> 16:59.080]  that you're responsible for, that you're working for in the end and try to reach all of the
[16:59.080 --> 17:00.840]  interactive elements in there.
[17:00.840 --> 17:08.800]  Try to control the navigation for example, try to see whether the focus is existing for
[17:08.800 --> 17:09.800]  example.
[17:09.800 --> 17:13.840]  There are so many things which are related to keyboard controls even only on the page
[17:13.840 --> 17:19.920]  where we do assume that the users are using a mouse but this is even also something that
[17:19.920 --> 17:23.400]  is beneficial for screen readers even also.
[17:23.400 --> 17:30.440]  It's obviously not something that is the only part, screen readers is even also what Danny
[17:30.440 --> 17:35.440]  talked about regarding semantic HTML but if you do see that it's not controllable by keyboard
[17:35.440 --> 17:41.720]  it's most likely even also giving screen reader users a hard time in the end.
[17:41.720 --> 17:43.920]  And this is the easiest one.
[17:43.920 --> 17:50.080]  We even also talked about, Mike talked about some other tools we like to highlight at least
[17:50.080 --> 17:51.080]  Chrome developer tools.
[17:51.080 --> 17:55.680]  They do have some really nice stuff especially for contrast ratio for example.
[17:55.680 --> 17:57.280]  We wanted to highlight over here.
[17:57.280 --> 18:02.680]  They do have Google Lighthouse where you could obviously measure so much more stuff but they
[18:02.680 --> 18:07.240]  do have an accessibility section in there even also giving you great tips in the end
[18:07.240 --> 18:13.360]  and they even also provide you insights into the accessibility tree which is the basis
[18:13.360 --> 18:18.960]  for rendering that stuff later on or telling it to the screen reader.
[18:18.960 --> 18:24.200]  There was a great talk yesterday by Mozilla even also on optimizing this regarding performance
[18:24.200 --> 18:25.960]  and accessibility performance.
[18:25.960 --> 18:33.080]  I would really suggest you to have a look on the recording for this one.
[18:33.080 --> 18:35.640]  Another part is the X DevTools.
[18:35.640 --> 18:38.520]  They do have something for CLI even also.
[18:38.520 --> 18:43.200]  They do have plugins for the browsers.
[18:43.200 --> 18:47.360]  Why have we used the Foster website over here?
[18:47.360 --> 18:48.360]  No hard feelings.
[18:48.360 --> 18:50.200]  I'm sorry about it.
[18:50.200 --> 18:51.200]  Total issues 35.
[18:51.200 --> 18:55.680]  Yeah, let's skip that.
[18:55.680 --> 18:56.680]  Next slide.
[18:56.680 --> 18:58.520]  Still, it's about the same message.
[18:58.520 --> 19:01.960]  It's about the human's test with humans in the end.
[19:01.960 --> 19:05.240]  Keyboard is something which gives you some insight quite quickly.
[19:05.240 --> 19:08.560]  It's something that is really low level in the end.
[19:08.560 --> 19:13.160]  But talk to colleagues in your company in your field in the end.
[19:13.160 --> 19:19.240]  I'm even also working with several colleagues with disabilities and was really inspiring
[19:19.240 --> 19:24.080]  in the end to see how all of this works and to go through this stuff.
[19:24.080 --> 19:26.120]  This is something that is really important.
[19:26.120 --> 19:30.640]  Talk to the users in the end who are using this.
[19:30.640 --> 19:35.480]  One of the last things previous to the questions that we wanted to bring up because we talked
[19:35.480 --> 19:38.000]  about it, we had a quick conversation about it.
[19:38.000 --> 19:45.320]  We do know CVEs, for example, for a global database regarding security issues.
[19:45.320 --> 19:50.760]  Why don't we even also do this for accessibility vulnerabilities in the end?
[19:50.760 --> 19:54.920]  Because it's even also something that is becoming or that should become more important
[19:54.920 --> 19:57.080]  and that even also becomes legal.
[19:57.080 --> 20:04.560]  So why not do something similar for accessibility and we leave you with this.
[20:04.560 --> 20:17.360]  Thank you very much for your attention and let's go over to your questions now.
[20:17.360 --> 20:20.520]  Yes please.
[20:20.520 --> 20:22.520]  I could repeat it.
[20:22.520 --> 20:29.040]  There are some elements for some of the data picker that is not accessible by default.
[20:29.040 --> 20:33.720]  So they are catered where you should have to have the UI library.
[20:33.720 --> 20:38.560]  Do you know some reference documentation that you can report to?
[20:38.560 --> 20:42.600]  It depends on the, I would say, sorry, I should repeat it.
[20:42.600 --> 20:44.040]  There are some elements in the end.
[20:44.040 --> 20:45.040]  Yeah, sorry.
[20:45.040 --> 20:48.200]  There are some elements, the question was, there are some elements like for example the
[20:48.200 --> 20:53.000]  data picker which are currently even already identified as not being responsible in even
[20:53.000 --> 20:55.680]  the native browser implementation.
[20:55.680 --> 20:59.840]  So I think, and the question was about whether I do know libraries which I could, for example,
[20:59.840 --> 21:00.840]  recommend.
[21:00.840 --> 21:03.400]  I think in the end it's depending on the context that you're working in.
[21:03.400 --> 21:07.760]  So for example, if there's a great Angular plugin, you couldn't use it in React context.
[21:07.760 --> 21:12.400]  So you always need to sadly do the research and search for a good plugin.
[21:12.400 --> 21:17.840]  I think, and I talked about the standards previously, I think it's so important to
[21:17.840 --> 21:22.600]  you to support those standards because if we do standardize all of this stuff, then
[21:22.600 --> 21:28.680]  the browser vendors do have the chance even also to make things better in the future.
[21:28.680 --> 21:30.280]  This is the main point.
[21:30.280 --> 21:34.560]  So I couldn't necessarily give a perfect suggestion at the moment, but I do know about
[21:34.560 --> 21:36.640]  those issues at least, they pickers.
[21:36.640 --> 21:37.800]  It's quite hard.
[21:37.800 --> 21:44.120]  There's another initiative who are trying to even also come up with new solutions because
[21:44.120 --> 21:50.320]  even also most designers think about that these ugly, let's say, ugly standard elements
[21:50.320 --> 21:56.040]  in the browser that we need to overlay them because of design reasons.
[21:56.040 --> 21:57.320]  And there's another initiative.
[21:57.320 --> 22:01.640]  I don't remember the name who are even already coming up with something, for example, for
[22:01.640 --> 22:08.800]  the select menu to build this new, but again, I'm sorry, I could even also, we could add
[22:08.800 --> 22:13.600]  it to the slides afterwards and then it's in the, add a link on the Foster website.
[22:13.600 --> 22:14.600]  Yep.
[22:14.600 --> 22:15.600]  Thank you.
[22:15.600 --> 22:16.600]  Any more questions?
[22:16.600 --> 22:17.600]  Yes, please.
[22:17.600 --> 22:18.600]  Yep.
[22:18.600 --> 22:19.600]  It's you.
[22:19.600 --> 22:20.600]  Pablo.
[22:20.600 --> 22:29.600]  My impression here is that by the time a developer has a chance to do that, it's committed
[22:29.600 --> 22:30.600]  to it.
[22:30.600 --> 22:35.600]  At Deutsche Bank, how do you approach this from a design perspective?
[22:35.600 --> 22:43.600]  In the UXUI, but in general, as a designing the product, before even a developer has the
[22:43.600 --> 22:47.600]  chance to say, actually, I know how to do this in a way that will pass a test.
[22:47.600 --> 22:48.600]  Yeah.
[22:48.600 --> 22:52.600]  Because that is the beginning of the funnel.
[22:52.600 --> 22:59.600]  But if we don't do that properly, so I'm curious about your experience that instead of focusing
[22:59.600 --> 23:07.600]  too much on when it's already there and the developer has to do some needs AAA checks.
[23:07.600 --> 23:08.600]  Yeah.
[23:08.600 --> 23:14.600]  So I do even also say the question again, how do we approach accessibility not in the end,
[23:14.600 --> 23:19.600]  not a testing, but even already like, for example, in the concept phase and design process exactly.
[23:19.600 --> 23:24.600]  So I think it's mainly about to have this scaling in an organization.
[23:24.600 --> 23:28.600]  It's only the first most important thing is about awareness from my point of view.
[23:28.600 --> 23:34.600]  So even already in our onboarding sessions for new employees, we are having onboarding
[23:34.600 --> 23:41.600]  sessions, we do have talks, we do educate on accessibility even already.
[23:41.600 --> 23:47.600]  So I think the main thing is about awareness for all involved people in the end, for product
[23:47.600 --> 23:51.600]  owners, for designers, for developers, for testing in the end.
[23:51.600 --> 23:55.600]  I think it's mainly about awareness, I would say, and then you could only scale.
[23:55.600 --> 23:59.600]  And I'd like to thank you for your product because we're really looking forward to your
[23:59.600 --> 24:00.600]  product.
[24:00.600 --> 24:01.600]  You talked about thank you.
[24:01.600 --> 24:02.600]  Yeah.
[24:02.600 --> 24:03.600]  So another question.
[24:03.600 --> 24:04.600]  Follow up.
[24:04.600 --> 24:06.600]  I'm afraid it's not only about awareness.
[24:06.600 --> 24:09.600]  I think it's also about the right skill set.
[24:09.600 --> 24:18.600]  We are really struggling to find a talent, accessibility talent in the design space.
[24:18.600 --> 24:24.600]  Awareness is fine, but it's also about experiencing really challenging projects.
[24:24.600 --> 24:25.600]  Totally.
[24:25.600 --> 24:26.600]  Totally.
[24:26.600 --> 24:28.600]  It wasn't about only aware.
[24:28.600 --> 24:29.600]  I know.
[24:29.600 --> 24:30.600]  You haven't said it.
[24:30.600 --> 24:33.600]  So I repeat it quite quickly.
[24:33.600 --> 24:36.600]  It's not about only awareness, it's even about the skill sets.
[24:36.600 --> 24:38.600]  It's about experiences.
[24:38.600 --> 24:39.600]  But you need to start somewhere.
[24:39.600 --> 24:45.600]  I mean, you could build up experiences by starting and then having all the people getting those
[24:45.600 --> 24:46.600]  experiences in the end.
[24:46.600 --> 24:49.600]  I think I couldn't have a better answer at least.
[24:49.600 --> 24:54.600]  We do have several teams who are specifically working on this, even also education, but
[24:54.600 --> 24:59.600]  even also testing from the very beginning, even already educating concept and designers
[24:59.600 --> 25:01.600]  and all of these colleagues.
[25:01.600 --> 25:07.600]  But in the end, I think it's, yeah, it's about skill set awareness and all of this stuff,
[25:07.600 --> 25:11.600]  education, talking to each other, all of that stuff.
[25:11.600 --> 25:13.600]  This is what I could tell you for the moment.
[25:13.600 --> 25:18.600]  But we could follow up.
[25:18.600 --> 25:19.600]  Okay.
[25:19.600 --> 25:20.600]  Yeah.
[25:20.600 --> 25:22.600]  We are still here.
[25:22.600 --> 25:23.600]  We are still here.
[25:23.600 --> 25:27.600]  If you do have anything else to follow up, just come to us, please.
[25:27.600 --> 25:48.600]  Thank you.